LUMINA Podcasts

In this episode of Value-Based Care Insights, host Daniel Marino explores the evolving role of operating room (OR) nurse leaders within the perioperative service line. As perioperative services become an increasingly important strategic and financial focus for hospitals and health systems, the demand is growing for leaders who can combine clinical expertise with business and operational acumen. 

Joining the conversation is Cheryl Barratt, a seasoned healthcare consultant with over 30 years of experience in surgical services operations, system integration, and performance improvement. Cheryl discusses how perioperative nurse leaders, while strong clinically, frequently lack the training needed to manage the broader responsibilities of these roles. She shares practical insights into how organizations can support their development with leadership, financial, and strategic competencies that enable them to lead more effectively and drive long-term performance. 

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE:

 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Welcome to Value-Based Care Insights. I am your host, Daniel Marino. Many hospitals, of course, are focused on trying to increase their revenue, trying to increase their efficiencies. All of them have been focusing for a long time on reducing costs, and a big area that impacts certainly hospital financial performance is the activities that are done in the operating room. And whether it's the main operating room or it's the ASCs, the number of cases, the volume of cases being performed within a day, the efficiencies of that case, and everything from the pre-evaluation or preoperative services to post-operative care, all of that affects the financial performance of the hospital or the health system. And what we're seeing is because there's such a focus on that, and rightly so, many hospitals have expanded their strategic focus on the OR, and expanded that to really include it as a service line. Perioperative medicine service line is what we are beginning to see. Which is really kind of exciting for the hospitals, because again, it's a focus on how you think about it from a continuum of care perspective. 

But also, if you're going to do it well, you need to partner with your surgeons. So surgeons in particular are excited about this because it allows them an opportunity to potentially do more cases or improve their own efficiencies and so forth. 

But while doing this, even though the strategic focus is there, the infrastructure is something that remains a challenge for hospitals today as they start to expand their focus. And what I mean by that is the leadership, the organizational structure that's important to drive the success of a perioperative service line if you will. 

 Well, someone here to talk about this, I'm really excited today to have Cheryl Barrett join us. Cheryl is an RN and a seasoned healthcare executive. She's been in consulting for over 30 years, helped numerous hundreds of organizations across the country with improving their or and perioperative service line. As mentioned, she's an RN, and she also has acted as a vice president of perioperative services. So welcome to the program Cheryl. 

 

Cheryl Barratt:  

Thank you, Dan. Nice to be here. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

So, Cheryl, as we see these hospitals expand their service line focus, what are you seeing as the major gaps in the leadership particularly, say the OR managers? 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

Well, where I see the gaps is basically, you know, learning to work in a new environment and basically not having some of the skill sets that make it more of a service line direction rather than kind of a siloed OR or periop direction. Basically the operative support areas. So I see that as an opportunity for nurses to learn more about business and have kind of a business acumen skill set that they bring to the table. That is not something that's easy to pick up. Right? I mean, it takes some dedicated work, and often involves going back to school, and you may be in a master's program in nursing that offers some of those courses. But I have found that actually concentrating in business, administration or hospital administration, really going kind of outside of nursing to get that additional education is really helpful. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Well, absolutely, I mean, and you see it, because you know a good OR director is very clinical, right? He or she knows the clinical side of surgical services, knows, you know, maybe the efficiencies of the OR knows how to support their surgeon, their surgeons, and so forth. But the part that is meeting that's missing. And you touched on this, is taking a business perspective of what's current, not only in the OR but across that continuum of perioperative services, and many of the nurses have not been trained to do this right. So to build, to develop that business acumen, I think, to a certain extent is a challenge. But also it's an opportunity that's out there. 

 

Cheryl Barratt:  

Absolutely, absolutely. So. I remember when I made that decision a long time ago to go back to school, I knew I was going to be in classes with people who had never been in an operating room, and possibly would never be in an operating room until their old age. Right? So I was surrounded by people who were like business school candidates, right? And it was really different, really, really different in terms of the schooling, the education, the camaraderie with your fellow students and the expectations. There was no clinical part.  

 

Daniel Marino:  

No, it's all the business. 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

Right? Yeah, yeah. And you know the challenges of accounting and finance, were definitely big hurdles for me to overcome. But has served me very, very well over the years to have that basic background and then be able to go toe, to toe with finance and really understand what they're trying to do and what you're trying to do, and collaborate together to meet the business objectives of the organization. Even to the point of trying to learn a little bit about coding. Coding is pretty important, right? 

  

Daniel Marino:  

It is. 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

And you have to understand some of those basics to be able to be effective as a leader. You also, I think, another thing that's really changed within the surgical services is the whole idea of a dyad or a triad. So it's not just on the back of the OR director. Right? You're now in a dyad or a triad, either with your chief of surgery and chief of anesthesia, or one of the other right? It depends if you have a dyad or a triad. And working collaboratively to really help and steer the organization towards the goals of the organization. So no longer is the nurse taking a back seat as an administrator, but really is in the forefront with those two other really clinical people, and the nurse may bring more business acumen relative to the operating room to the table than the surgeons. But I can say that there is a huge push these days with both the surgeon and the anesthesiologist, who are in that active role as chiefs and as triad members, to also get some of that business education. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Absolutely. Well there's such a right now as organizations are focusing on really enhancing a lot of their financial performance of the OR there's a major push to upscale all of the business acumen related to perioperative services. Right? So you can see that as the organization starts to evolve, that business focus has to come into play, you know. A couple of months ago we were doing an assessment at a hospital where we were looking at O services, and you know we had talked with them about what a high performing perioperative service line would look like. And one oof the questions that came down is, well, you know talk about the structure. Well, the 1st thing I talked about was the dyad model, as you said right, having, say, a vice President of perioperative services that works closely with a you know the chief of surgery or the anesthesiologist, or in some cases both. But it's also important to have a strong business manager there, because the perioperative, the vice president perioperative services is really a strategic role, right? I mean, he or she needs to know operations, and they need to do it well. But they also strategically have to think about how to grow the service line, how to grow the performance of the OR. And in order to do that, you need to have a strong business partner or somebody there that basically knows the ins and outs of the numbers. 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

Right, right. So you know, I always advocate that the OR director have a strong sense of those numbers, really know what they are, but you know you don't want to spend your life doing Power Point Excel spreadsheets. Right? That's not your role. Right? So you're more of an executive. So you have to have that business manager. But, as I said, you have to know the data also because you do not want egg on your face relative to the data when it comes up, because it's going to be discussed. You have to be transparent. You have to know it. And if someone asks you what the formula for this is, what's the algorithm, you absolutely have to know. And not only do you have to know that, but you have to know within your own system what are the inclusion and exclusion criteria. So that you are, when a physician asks you well, let's say, for turnover time, you know, if it goes past 60 min is that included or excluded? You need to know that. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, if you're just tuning in, I'm Daniel Marino, you’re listening to Value-Based Care Insights. We're having a fascinating discussion on enhancing the OR and perioperative services, and in particular, you know, upscaling the OR director to more of a service line, Vice President of Perioperative services leader. So Cheryll, one of the questions as you were talking, I thought about is, it's got to be a pretty difficult paradigm shift for many of the nurses who've just been used to managing clinical operations, serving the physicians and so forth. 

And a lot of times the ones that do a good job, you know they take care of their surgeons. But when you're moving into more of a vice president or a service line leader, you really need to do what's best with the organization. So there's a bit of a you know, maybe a battle there, right? I mean serving the physician or serving the organization through advancing the perioperative service line when you were working in the OR, and you clearly made that leap. How did you manage through that. 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

Well, one of the things I did was really work very closely with my CEO. So I found out what the needs were from their perspective and then translated those and involved my chief of surgery and chief of anesthesia. We didn't always agree. 

 

Daniel Marino: 

Sure.  

 

Cheryl Barratt:  

You know, that's the, actually, that's the best part of an organization is to have collaboration between these 3 people and serve the organization. And you know you win some. You lose some. You don't always win right? You don't always get your way, but it's not about getting your way. It's about advancing perioperative services within the organization and giving the best product to your client. The patient. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Right? And yeah, serving the patients. And it's got such a huge opportunity around it, right? 

Because if you know, these leaders in perioperative services now have a real opportunity to make a difference within the organization. They can make a difference by reducing costs, and probably have the ability to work directly with the purchasing folks, or certainly with the surgeons, to streamline some of the supplies, and so forth, which they probably couldn't otherwise do as the OR director.  

I think there's also an opportunity to think about growth. Right? How do you really bring in additional surgeons that's going to expand the financial performance of the OR is what. As well as then, you know, all of those things that are important around say block utilization, or the things that really drive the efficiencies of the OR so I think it's I mean, it's a great role, as you know, on paper. I think the challenge is how we get, or how we get the leader to kind of upscale themselves and take advantage of those opportunities. 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

Absolutely, and the key is education, and the key is experience right? The more you do it the better you get at it right. And the more you're surrounded by great partners in your chief of anesthesia and your chief of surgery, the better you all progress together towards meeting the goals of the organization and serving the clients. And that's exactly what every nurse, every anesthesiologist and every surgeon wants to do, is serve the client and the patient and their families and support them through. You know, surgery is traumatic, right, no matter what it's traumatic, and we need to have that empathy as well as that knowledge base to provide what is necessary for the patient at a cost that is reasonable. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Right? Right? Absolutely. So. You know, when, when we're working with organizations, one of the philosophies that we put in place is, you need to have a strong governance model, right? So the governance model should include the senior say, surgical leaders, clinical leaders, operational leaders that could drive a lot of the performance of the OR right, and that governance becomes really important. How does the role of the perioperative service line leader change as you start to evolve that governance model. 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

Well, I think one of the ways it changes is, you don't just follow a script of what the policy says. Right? So let's say. For example, 10 years ago, the policy said “We are going to have a 1 day release time.” Well, a 1 day release time may have worked for everyone back then, or possibly didn't. And you had a lot of disagreement about it. But today you have to look at it kind of globally. What does it mean for every single service? 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah. 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

It means something different if you have all of your patients basically scheduling within a 2 week period of you doing the surgery versus months out like, if you're an ophthalmologist, right? So you have to take into account all those needs and tailor, the governance and the policies to meet the needs of those surgeons and their patients. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, you know, the service line leader, the Vice President of Perioperative services does really need to think more at the 10,000 or 20,000 foot level, right, as opposed to in the weeds. When he or she was running the operations of the OR they were in the weeds. Right? And it was all about, how do we create direct efficiencies, room by room, or, you know, for the supplies or for the individuals. But when you're placed in this leadership role, when you're thinking about it at a higher level. You really do need to think more strategically. 

  

Cheryl Barratt: 

Yes. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

I keep going back to the fact that it's a real paradigm shift for folks. It has to be. 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

Yeah. And I think the thing, the challenge is keeping up. So keeping up with the literature, keeping up with what's going on at conferences. You have to stay engaged. You absolutely have to stay engaged. You don't want a new service coming in, or a service line coming in, specialty, and you don't know anything about it. So trying to keep up, even if you don't have that service at your hospital right? You have to keep up, and it means not only going to conference, you have to read the literature, you absolutely have to see what is best practice out there, or leading practice and work towards that leading practice. You know. One of the things that I really took to heart in my nursing education was the difference between when a best practice is introduced, and when it's implemented widely, and you know it can be a 13 to 15 year gap. We don't have 13 or 15 years anymore to get to best practice right? So keeping up with the literature and then doing performance improvement to reach those levels with the collaboration of your surgeons and anesthesiologists and leveraging your surgeon and anesthesia partners to help you in that endeavor. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

So when, when hospitals are thinking about upscaling their surgical services, their or services into more of a perioperative service line, should there be a very focused strategic initiative around developing that OR leader into a perioperative service leader? Or in your experience? Is it better to maybe go out into to recruit a seasoned individual that could really drive it. I mean, I guess it comes down to do you build it within, or do you go out and sort of buy it. 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

I think it really depends on the organization as well as who's in place at the time. Right? And if you don't have somebody who has business acumen. What resources do you have within the organization? Some places have really great management training within their organizations. I would say, that's probably lesser what I see than more right. There may be some, but there's typically not. It's not like going to school, right? It just like isn't like going back to school, and that can be kind of an intro. But I do see more and more organizations recruiting for the best talent. But the best talent is hard to come by. And you know the typical OR director position is open for a very long time. If you're recruiting from the outside, so there's always at least 100 positions open across the country always. So you have to come up with the money right, to pay them well, and if you don't have the internal talent, perhaps giving them a mentor is helpful, and some education, or really encouraging that they get that education. Not every place can have, you know, somebody with experience. So we have to grow our own also. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

We have to grow our own, I mean, especially in rural areas. I mean, it's, you know, the need for human capital is probably the biggest challenge that they have. But I think for all organizations, as you're starting to really create this position, groom this position for success, having the right education in place. And you know I totally agree with your perspective on having a mentor. I think that's the best way for folks to be able to learn. But you have to invest in your people right? You have to be able to grow it. So as we're thinking about this and the value of the perioperative service line. Do the typical or do the evolving role, he vice President of perioperative services? Are their roles typically just confined to what occurs in the OR or do you see this role also expanding to say the ambulatory surgery center, or even having some influence in the surgeon's offices? Right? Because what happens is the surgeon's office with consults directly impacts what occurs in filling their block schedules and their block utilization. Thoughts on that? 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

Yeah. So actually, I've seen kind of two different ways to approach this. One is to really kind of have. Or actually, there's three. One is still kind of very periop oriented, pre-op you know, ambulatory surgery, the OR, pacu and phase two recovery. That's kind of old school, right? Because the continuum starts well before that. The continuum starts all the way back in the physician's office. So I see some organizations linking the office management with the periop director. So that's 1 movement. I also see other organizations linking the post-op on the floor to the periop manager. So it really depends on kind of the philosophy within the organization. But I've seen both of those and I personally favor the pre-op because there's so much that can be done from a prehabilitation perspective with the patient, so that we truly do impact the length of stay and outcomes. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, I agree with you. I think the you know, the Vice President peroperative services, you know. If preoperative services, preoperative valuation is not reporting to him or her frankly, I think that's a bit of a mistake. I think they have to have an influence, because what they do preoperatively directly impacts what happens post-operatively right. And when you look at readmissions, when you look at even influences in length of stay or transitions of care, you know it all goes back. It's really not what happens in the operating room. It's what happens prior to that. So I think that influence really becomes key. But I find it fascinating with the evolving reach and responsibilities that these roles are going to start to undertake. And I think to your point, I could see a lot of these roles, maybe not directly responsible for, say the surgeon, the ambulatory clinic, surgical offices, but influencing what goes on there because there is such a strong connection. 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

Absolutely, absolutely. As I said, especially with the whole concept of prehabilitation, right? Not putting the patient on the schedule until they're in shape for the surgery. Right? So that's a paradigm shift that's definitely a paradigm shift. And to learn more about that in periop medicine is imperative. So even if you're not responsible for that as the director, knowing about what should be happening relative to prehabilitation is really powerful information that you can work with your chief of surgery and chief of anesthesia, and have a risk stratification model in place, so that you're putting patients on the schedule when they're ready to go to surgery. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well, Cheryl, this has been great, and I know, you know, for many of our listeners who have given a lot of thought in expanding their surgical services to more of a perioperative service line having the right individual in place to drive this, I mean, is is absolutely. critical for success. And I really appreciate you know, you coming on and talking about this. For any of our listeners who may want more resources or have some questions, are there any sites or any resources out there that you can direct them to? And if you're comfortable, I would even love for you to share your contact information. 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

Sure. So I think if you're thinking about expanding your skill, set to really do a good in-depth, look at if you're a nurse right? Not everybody that runs an operating room is a nurse. But if you're a nurse to look at programs within your area, either online or you know traditional schools to expand your knowledge within nursing. There are schools that concentrate on both the business aspects as well as the nursing aspects in master's programs. So that would be one resource to look at. But also explore joining organizations outside of nursing like ACHE, HFMA. And there's one organization that I really love because it's truly collaborative. It's nurses, it's physicians, it's surgeons, it's anesthesiologists who get together every year the American College of Perioperative Medicine. Anybody who is clinical or non-clinical, would really benefit from joining that organization and going to their annual conference. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. And I think if folks can begin to look at that, even those that are outside the clinical focus. You know that that support the business acumen would be great. Real quick, any of our listeners want to get a hold of you, any thoughts on how they can connect? 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

Yeah, Cherylbarratt@cbarrattassociates.com.   

 

Daniel Marino:  

Wonderful. Well, Cheryl, thanks for coming on. Wonderful, you have a clearly, a huge breadth of experience. Really appreciate your insights. Thank you very much. 

  

Cheryl Barratt:  

Thank you. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

And for our listeners, of you want to learn more about this topic or any of the resources that Lumina Health Partners has related to perioperative services, service line development, OR efficiencies, or any of our topics we cover on Value-Based Care Insights. Please reach out to dmarino@luminahp.com or visit luminahp.com. And want to thank all of our listeners today for tuning in until our next insight. I am Daniel Marino, bringing you 30 min of value to your day. Take care. 

In this episode of Value-Based Care Insights, host Daniel Marino continues the conversation on CMS’s mandatory TEAM Model (Transforming Episode Accountability Model) — a five-year episode-based pricing initiative impacting 741 hospitals across the country. 

Joining the discussion is Dr. Christian Pean, a board-certified orthopedic trauma and reconstruction surgeon at Duke University School of Medicine, executive director of AI and Innovation for Duke Orthopedic Surgery, and co-founder/CEO of Revel Ai Health. Together, they unpack the clinical and operational impacts of TEAM, with a focus on five key surgical procedures. Dr. Penn highlights how emerging technologies, including conversational AI platforms, are enhancing episode management and streamlining outreach, triage, and documentation to help providers improve care coordination and succeed under TEAM. 

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE:

 

 

Daniel Marino:

Welcome to Value-Based Care Insights. I am your host, Daniel Marino. In today's discussion, we're going to start or have another conversation around the TEAM model. For those of you that were listening at the last episode, my colleague and I, Lucy Zielinski, took a deep dive into what TEAM is, the impact to the hospitals, the 741 that are mandated. And we felt like coming out of that, there were still a number of questions really around providers, how they needed to manage the success related to the 5 surgical procedures and in particular, how they need to structure their data, their organizations, even the care with their patients in order to drive the right level of performance. And again, just by way of background TEAM stands for transforming episode accountability model. It's a mandated or mandatory 5-year episode, based pricing model that, you know, is coming through from CMS. There's 5 different episodes that are included in here, and these are the high volume, high cost procedures, and they're low extremity, joint replacement, surgical hip, femur, fracture, treatment, spinal fusion, CAGB, coronary artery bypass graft, and the major bowel procedures. And as I mentioned, there's 741 hospitals across the country that are included within TEAM. And, interestingly enough, as we're having conversations with different hospitals and even some of the conversations I'm having with our listeners, many hospital leaders, many providers don't even realize that they're involved or within TEAM, or they're one of the mandated hospitals. 

 Well, I'm really excited today to have a great guest, someone who I've had a number of conversations with Dr. Christian Pean, a Board-certified orthopedic trauma and Reconstruction Surgeon at Duke University School of Medicine. Dr. Pean also is executive director of AI and it Innovation for Duke orthopedic surgery and core faculty member of the Duke Margolis Institute of Health Policy. As well as his role within Duke, Dr. Pean is also the co-founder and CEO of Revel AI Health. And really excited about Revel AI, Dr. Pean and I have had a number of conversations related to the platform, and some of the work that he's been able to do, and some of the value that he's added to a lot of providers so excited to dive into that as well. Dr. Pean, welcome to the program. 

  

Christian Pean:

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be on the show, and I'm really glad that this model is being emphasized, especially as an orthopedic surgeon. I think that the awareness of this model is just lacking, and, as you know, there's so many orthopedic episodes that are included in this model. So yeah, just very happy to be on the show and speaking about this today. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Yeah, I agree with you. You know, the mandated joint replacement and bundle program, like, you said has been around for a while, this is kind of the next evolution of that. And you know the interesting thing about this, and I mentioned this in my opening comments, many of the providers, many of the hospitals, don't even realize they're part of that. So from your perspective with your work that you're involved in at Duke, and obviously your role is an orthopedic surgeon, talk from your perspective of what TEAM is and how you see it impacting a lot of the work that you're doing at Duke as well as done with your patients. 

  

Christian Pean: 

Absolutely like you said, this is really a continuation of previous models that we've seen. The comprehensive joint replacement bundle, BPCI. But this is different because it's mandatory. So there's no option to not participate in this bundle. And I think another contrast to what we've seen in the past is we're used to 90 day bundles. We see that CMS has moved that window to 30 days. The nature of the care episodes that are included in this model. You mentioned them. CABG, lower extremity joint replacement, which is total hip replacement, total knee replacement, total ankle replacement, major bowel procedure, surgical hip and femur fracture, treatment and then spinal fusion. 3 of those are orthopedic. I really want to call attention to the hip and femur fracture bundle. We are not used to managing that a lot of the care that's focused on these patients is about upstream risk optimization, modifying risk factors, making sure that your patients are well indicated for surgery. Those hip and femur fracture patients, we don't have the luxury of any of that. That's going to be very different. There's a lot more in this model that I think is going to impact health systems that are selected. Something else right in this model consistent with the pro Pm Mandate, you have to collect patient reported outcome measures on your hip and knee replacement patients and your ability to collect 50% of those measures is going to factor into the risk adjustment. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And you know, one of the things that really caught my attention. As I've dove into the economic structure of this. And you touched on this previous bundles were basically, you know, few days before the episode. And then 30 days after. For the TEAM model, you need to manage that patient 30 days prior to the episode and 90 days post episode, right? And the cost structure is predicated on how you're managing patients recovery. Recovery in the home. We're going to be evaluated by the readmission activity that's occurring. As you mentioned, a lot of the quality patient reported outcomes, as well as in patient safety factors. So it's going to be critical that providers do the work with the patient upfront on really capturing all of those elements that are going to drive or identify the risk factors, but really drive the recovery and have that recovery plan post episode. Without that I think providers are really going to be challenged with the success of this program. 

  

Christian Pean:  

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that traditionally in value-based care. We kind of think that we need a few things to happen for systems to participate. You need alignment and incentives. You need access to the data, and you need care transformation. The data is going to be made available. The alignment is not an option anymore. So it's really about operationalizing that care, transformation and the challenges that I see here, like you said, this is care that needs to be coordinated upstream. We do not do a very good job of systematically risk stratifying these patients. The levers that you can pull to contain costs in these orthopedic patients side of service shift. So if you want to have less patients in the inpatient setting and just opt out of the bundle in that way you can move them to the outpatient setting. But that means being very proactive about the care coordination way upstream, and maybe shifting people that otherwise would have had surgery in the hospital to an ambulatory surgery center that takes a lot of care coordination. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it's being able to identify those patients who are would be good candidates for that in the surgery center. Because, you know, if you've got a patient who, let's say, you know, has a high BMI, or maybe doesn't have the right home setting to do rehabilitation in the home, or you're not able to coordinate with a rehab facility post episode that's going to factor into all of this. So it's really a very comprehensive approach that providers need to start to take, to risk, stratify that patient. But to really understand what's the best care plan post episode for that patient, so you could really manage that recovery as efficient as possible. 

 

Christian Pean:  

Absolutely a hundred percent. And I think that one thing that we haven't really thought about as we're operationalizing these bundles. This is going to be the 1st time that these hospitals need to put infrastructure in place to follow these patients in this manner. Another sort of nugget that's hidden in this mandate is, we have to be getting primary care follow up for these patients within that 30 days after surgery. That's another tremendous amount of care coordination you need to do. So you talked about identifying the risks upstream. I think that actually, social drivers of health and social support are really important to screen. For in this model, in order to identify patients that need care, navigation support, you've got to figure out not just how to avoid the post-acute care utilization in the emergency room and readmissions. You've also got to get that patient back to the primary care physician. That's not something we're used to, but it is completely consistent with CMS’s approach to value-based care, bringing the accountable care organizations and specialists more closely together. This is going to be really hard work. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, well, and like you said historically, particularly orthopedic specialists. But I think you know a number of specialists, when a pay in the fee for service world, when the patient is referred the physician or the surgeon does their work. They finished, you know, the surgery, and then they're done transition. So you know, I guess from an orthopedic surgeon perspective that's a paradigm shift. 

  

Christian Pean:  

100 Percent. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

So how do we get our surgeons, our physicians, our providers, thinking about that differently in such a way that they do need to collaborate, and they do need to integrate with primary care better. 

  

Christian Pean:  

100%, I mean, surgeons are not used to having to deliver this sort of longitudinal care, and it is completely a frame of mind shift. We're going to need surgeons to champion the resources and the infrastructure that are going to help them succeed. We are being asked to do more with less every day. We're seeing surgeons trying to do more cases in order to combat shrinking reimbursements, and then to try to ask us on top of all of this to collect this information is going to be really challenging, which is why I think surgeons need to be the ones leading the charge asking for care coordination resources, and yes, technology enablement. I don't think that you can perform well in these models without knowing your own data very well. Your performance as you stand the benchmarks and putting technology in place to automate some of this process. Because I think in a lot of these models, we're going to be wanting to throw people at the problem. But we're in an environment where the turnover of staff, the margins that hospitals have are not going to be able to accommodate the kind of coordination that will help them to succeed in this model. And then you're gonna get hit twice. You're gonna get hit with labor costs. You're gonna get hit with financial penalties for Medicare in October of each year of this bundle, which, by the way, there are 3 tracks in this bundle you start on the optional Downside risk or upside in year 2- 5 of this bundle you are mandated to do downsided risk. Unless you have a special provision in place as a safety net hospital. But that's that is, that is a really precarious place to be in without operational logistics in place. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Oh, you're absolutely right. I mean, there's no doubt about it. CMS wants to hold providers accountable right? They want to have a risk component. That's all part of this. If you're just tuning in, I'm Daniel Marino, and you're listening to value-based care insights. I'm here today talking with Dr. Christian Pean, and we're taking a deep dive into the TEAM model, talking about it from a orthopedic or from a provider standpoint, and really talking about all those elements of success. Dr. Pean, I want to talk about the care management activities you just mentioned that the data becomes really important. And this is really hard for many organizations to start to think about what data they should look for as they start to not just risk stratify the patient, but to do something with that risk, stratification with that risk score, and then how to build that into one care management but 2. The recovery plan. So talk a little bit about the data, and then I'd like to dive into a little bit of Revel AI, because you've got a solution right now that's helping to kind of aggregate that. But talk a little bit about the data. What are you seeing on the front end, that becomes really important that providers should really be focusing on. 

  

Christian Pean:  

So the benefit of this model is, it's being distributed by the Government, and they are sharing the benchmarks. Regional benchmarks that hospitals are being held accountable for. By the way, those benchmarks are showing that the average hospital in this bundle is slated to lose between $700-$1200 per care episode. The average hospital in these bundles is doing over 300 cases. So that's a lot of money on the table to lose the data you need. You need provider performance information. You need risk stratification information. You need to be able to follow that information prospectively so that you can make adjustments in the care that you're delivering to these patients. And unfortunately, a lot of systems don't have workable dashboards in place or tools that can help them in real time, operationalize this data, and act on it right? 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, you're absolutely right, but you know. But I think it becomes really then then tough. Because if you're thinking about all of the elements that go into risk stratification. There's the internal data factors that are important, right? Those are sort of the clinical outcomes where you should be measuring, let's say, you know, if a patient is a diabetic what the Aa level is, you should be measuring other aspects of their chronic diseases or comorbidities, that kind of figure into that. But then you have the external data. You have the you, you have those social, determinant factor, those factors that are important for that that will drive, say, care, or rehab in the home that sort of thing, and it does become overwhelming for providers to think about how to aggregate all that data and then how to make sense of it. Right? So you incorporate it into a care plan. How should care manager start to think about that? One of the things that we talk a lot about is in the pre surgical evaluation, the things that need to occur with the patient prior to surgery. That's where you capture that. 

  

Christian Pean:

Yes. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Talk a little bit about your experience on how that that information should really fit into that pre-surgical evaluation. 

  

Christian Pean:  

Yeah. And we have experience with this, both with my academic hat on and my Revel AI hat on, you have to embed care management into the workflows. There's a lot of opportunity. At the time of surgical indication. If you have a standard risk assessment, you need to be collecting that right then and there. You need a failsafe. The preoperative assessment that call even that happens the night before. Surgery is an opportunity to capture more information from that patient, and then you need to be able to have patients on different pathways of care management. And, by the way, I mean CMS has definitely been leaving breadcrumbs on the trail here, trying to encourage. I mean, we've got transitional care management, principal care management, chronic care management programs. All of these have been designed to incentivize us to take care of these patients longitudinally. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

You're absolutely right. I kind of think about it as a balance between the fee for service activities, because you can bill for CC. 

  

Christian Pean:  

Yep. 

  

 

Daniel Marino:  

As well as then positioning you for success within value-based care. And this is the perfect example on how, if organizations would have kind of put those components in place prior to this, they could be positioned really well, going forward. Now, you know, with the new episode, talk a little bit about Revel AI. 

  

Christian Pean:

Absolutely. Yeah. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

There's a lot of technology solutions which are starting to emerge to help make sense of a lot of the data. Artificial intelligence is sort of the new buzzword, right? I went to HIMSS all over the place. I think you know you know of the of the 5,000 vendors that were there. 4999 of them had AI in their title. Talk a little bit about Revel AI, though what do you see as the technology solution, how it could support some of what we've been talking about, particularly around the care management. 

  

Christian Pean:

100%.  

Yeah. And I'm an AI enthusiast. I really believe I think this is kind of like the call to action. If you don't know about generative artificial intelligence, and you're not using it in your day to day productivity in your day-to-day care activities. It's time to catch up. This is everywhere. It's going to transform the way that care gets delivered. At Revel AI. What we've done is we've really tried to combine clinical subject matter expertise the policy mandates and really well vetted, responsible, artificial intelligence models to coordinate and automate a lot of this care. We like to use an acronym. In value-based care you're stepping into the arena. Right? So this is, you know, you're going to battle sometimes it feels like in these models. So we use that to our advantage. You need to assess, risk, stratify, engage, navigate, automate. Our platform is doing all of those things. We're collecting those assessments preoperatively that can help clinicians risk stratify their patients. All right. That's that assessment and risk stratification piece. We're engaging with the patient. So we've got text and voice based engagement that reaches out to the patient to further coordinate care, and all of that is done by a voice and text based conversational AI agent that's been trained on the clinicians protocols. It can make a huge impact just on de-burdening the staff effort that you have to put into this right? And then we're navigating patients to those resources. We have a really great partnership with find help. So when patients have social drivers of health, we're helping surface those social risk factors to the clinician as well as resources they might be eligible for. And we're navigating patients also into those buckets. We're trying to help care management here. We want care navigators to not be on the phone all day, by the way, between 8 Am. And 5 Pm. When patients might not be answering, but instead have a personal AI copilot that's helping do proactive, outbound, outreach, collecting that information and summarizing it smartly so that they can act on it, and then helping with some of that collaborative navigation for those patients, so that you can really succeed in these models. 

  

Daniel Marino: 

So we've done quite a bit of work with different provider organizations, helping them to optimize their care management. And I'll tell you in a lot of the work that we see when we 1st go into an organization the care management activity, the performance of care, management, activity is is upside down. Care managers end up spending 60, 70%, sometimes of their time aggregating the data, and only about 30 to 40% of the time actually working with working with their patients, actually doing the care management that has to be flipped. If we're going to be successful. 

  

Christian Pean:  

Yep. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

So how is Revel AI changing that paradigm? 

  

Christian Pean:  

I love that. You know you are, you're absolutely right. In care management you really want to be able to focus your attention on the patients that need your direct care the most. We're helping to automate a lot of those touch points and that outbound outreach. So the care managers aren't spending all day on the phones playing phone tag, trying to, you know. Play whack-a-mole here. We outfit them with an AI dashboard and their own personal voice agent. It's going to be able to accept inbound calls from patients. Categorize those calls, risk, stratify those calls as they're coming in. And then, by the way, we're also flagging those patients so that if they are in a special bundle or program, you've got that immediately visualized for you. And I think that's going to make a huge difference. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Huge difference. It's going to totally streamline, streamline, the workflow, I think, all the way all the way along. So when you started to work with the providers, particularly within the musculoskeletal areas. What's been some of the outcomes? How have you seen Revel AI make a difference?  

  

Christian Pean:  

We're saying we're seeing tremendous success. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Have you? 

  

Christian Pean:  

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that this is really speaking to the way that we've approached and partnered with the entities that we're working with. We're seeing an upwards of 80% collection of patient reported outcome measures. 

  

Daniel Marino: 

Oh, that's wonderful.  

  

Christian Pean:  

Yeah we're seeing on average, 91% of patients actually get risk stratified when they sign up for our care pathways. And we're seeing that our AI agent is handling on average 9 h of calls per provider, and that, I think, is just something that you can really quantify as a return on investment. This is really something that I think is going to change the way the care gets delivered, but also deliver on the promise of generating a return on investment for using this technology. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, absolutely. You know, we've started to work with the different hospitals that are under the under the mandated program. And we have a, we have a readiness assessment. We have a checklist right? And if we've gone through that, the feedback that we've seen so far is the number one standout is the aggregation of the data. How do you actually, in your pre-surgical process? Right? How do you transform PAT the pre-anesthesia testing that all the hospitals do? How do you actually transition that to more pre surgical evaluation and aggregating the data, this is the biggest problem that some of these hospitals are solving for. And we're identifying that within the checklist. So I would imagine, as Revel AI comes in, you know. That's a big solution, you know, a big solution opportunity for you. 

  

Christian Pean:  

100%. You know, you're right. I mean, we have seen people literally using pen and paper to keep track of these patients, you know, excel sheets in various folders. There's no need for that. You plug something like this in at that preoperative assessment at the time of surgical booking, and then you let the system help surface the patients that need help. Risk stratify those patients, and then really start to change the way that care gets delivered in a measurable and impactful way. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, well, this is great, and I'll tell you. You know I'm a big proponent of TEAM. I think it's got a lot of nice opportunities, but you know providers need to, they need to be proactive. 

  

Christian Pean: 

 Yes. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

And be able to manage this. If any of our listeners are interested in learning a little bit more about Revel AI, can you share the website, or maybe your contact information? 

  

Christian Pean:  

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, you know, 1st off, anyone is welcome to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I love furthering these conversations just one on one wearing both my academic hat and my Revel AI hat on. Anyone who's interested in the platform can reach us at hello@revelaihealth.com. That's hello@revelaihealth.com. Our website is revelaihealth.com. I'm going to put a personal plug in here. I think that it's so important for surgeons to get more involved in value-based care and understand artificial intelligence. We're starting a site techie surgeon. There's going to be more information about that. We're going to try to help educate people on how to implement AI to really change care and move the needle on value-based care in particular. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Well, congratulations to a lot of the great work that you're doing here. I really I agree with you. I think surgeons, now is the time for surgeons to get more involved in this, and it's just, It's a great opportunity, but they can't do it on their own right. 

  

Christian Pean:  

Absolutely, absolutely. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Well, Dr. Pean, thank you for coming on the program. Really appreciate it, and good luck to you as Revel starts to really move forward and love to have you back. I want to hear some of these outcomes, especially as we move into closer to the launch date of January 1st. 

  

Christian Pean:  

100%. I think we've only scratched the surface. You know. I didn't even get to talk about how important bone health optimization is for these patients. Huge missed opportunity. I really appreciate being on the show, and would be excited to come back again. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And for any of our listeners, if you're interested in finding out more around TEAM and even can connect you with Revel AI. As I mentioned, we have a lot of information on our website. We have a readiness assessment as well as a TEAM checklist that we're happy to share, and we're sending it out for free. So please take advantage of that. And again to all of our listeners. I want to thank everyone for tuning in until the next insight. I am Daniel Marino, bringing you 30 min of value to your day. Take care. 

In this episode of Value-Based Care Insights, host Daniel Marino explores the evolving role of artificial intelligence (AI) in population health. As AI continues to dominate industry conversations and drive vendor offerings,  healthcare leaders are faced with questions: What is real, what is hype, and where does the value lie? 

Dr. David Nash, Founding Dean Emeritus of  Jefferson College of Population Health and a nationally recognized thought leader in value-based care and population health, joins the conversation. Additionally,  Rick Howard, a seasoned Chief Data Officer and AI Strategist contributes to the conversation with his deep expertise in leading data-driven innovation across healthcare organizations. 

Together, they break down common misconceptions, highlight the most promising AI applications in care delivery, and offer practical insights into how health systems, providers, and payers can responsibly integrate AI to drive meaningful outcomes and return on investment (ROI). 

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE:

 

 

 

Daniel Marino:

Welcome to Value-Based Care Insights. I am your host, Daniel Marino. As we think about the evolution of value-based care and population health, boy, there's a lot of activity that's going on. I've been doing population health now for probably around 15/20 years, and with now the increase in new technologies and in particular artificial intelligence, boy, there's just a lot of activity that's occurring. And along with that activity, I think there's a lot of misnomers as to what artificial intelligence is, how we believe it can support some of our business services, manage our population, all of that.  

I had the opportunity to go to the HIMSS Conference, oh, I believe in March, and again spoke to many of the vendors. And I think 90% of the vendors that were there had AI within their name. It's certainly the new, the new buzzword. So many of the questions I often get asked as I'm having conversations with leaders around the country is help in separating fact from fiction. Right? What can AI do for us? How do we make sure that the artificial intelligence that we're starting to incorporate within our processes is real, can support our outcomes, is worth it, is going to create some type of ROI on it if you will. 

 Well, I'm really excited today to have 2 wonderful guests, certainly experts in this area. 1st is Dr. Nash, Dr. David Nash. Dr. Nash is a board certified internal medicine physician. He's the founding Dean Emeritus of Jefferson College of Population Health. He's worked in the population health space for 25 years. Certainly, you know the expert when it comes to population health.  

My other guest today is Rick Howard and Rick is a senior leader, Chief Data Officer and has worked with a number of different organizations, and if there is any expert out there on artificial intelligence, it certainly is, Rick. So Dr. Nash, Rick, welcome to the program. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Thanks! Great o be here. Great to have Rick with me, for sure. 

  

Rick Howard:

Thank you, Dan, and same, and likewise great to be here, and great to be sharing the stage with Dr. Nash. 

 

Daniel Marino:

So, Dr. Nash, maybe we could start with you. When you think about where population health is going right now, you know one of the big challenges that we've seen is, it really falls on a couple in a couple of areas. One, how do we aggregate all of this data to make sense of it. There's always a challenge in having providers, physicians, care managers react to activities instead of proactively managing the care. And I think just performing to the right level of outcomes. You know, when you think about where we're going with technology, how do you feel like it's going to influence what we're doing on some of those areas that I mentioned? 

 

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Well, great question, Dan, and wonderful to be on a program talking about the future of population health, since I had the privilege of helping to start the 1st college in America called Population Health, edit the textbook, and edit the journal. So, now it's part of our everyday lexicon. Let me reassure you that 15 years ago, even on our own campus here in the great city of Philadelphia, nobody knew what we were even talking about. So, what a hoot and a half. Right? Okay?  

So now to try to answer your question. Well, look, you can't improve quality and safety. You can't improve anything unless you're measuring it. So even the measures are a mess right now. And then, you can't improve anything unless you have the right data in a timely severity adjusted non-punitive way. And the current electronic medical records, not to mention any names, but the outfit in Madison, Wisconsin, doesn't give you the data that you need. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Right. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

It's basically a billing system, no matter what they say. So I'm involved with a host of fantastic companies around the country that are trying to do exactly what you described. For example, an outfit like Innovaccer in San Francisco, California, which sits on top of all of these medical records and literally sucks the data out of the EMR, out of the lab, out of the outpatient arena, out of billing, out of clinical details, and puts it all in one place for the clinician, and there are competitors for sure to Innovaccer. 

But we're only going to be able to improve care by giving clinicians timely non-punitive data about their own performance relative to a peer group. And then we have to teach them how to use the data to improve by standardizing care by reducing variation. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Yeah, and integrating it into their process, right?  

 

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Right. 

 

Daniel Marino:

It has become more of the norm than the exception. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

And then we'll get to it, I'm sure. But we've got to then build the newer clinical decision support tools into the workflow, because I can't open more than 2 screens at a time. It's impossible, and most especially for the folks who are busy clinically still, not me anymore after 25 years. But you can't have the time and energy it takes away from the doctor-patient relationship. So, I'm really excited about all the new technology coming our way that will give us patient level data and population health level data. My only concern, Dan is, I hope I'm around to see it because, you know, we've been talking about this at HIMSS for 10 years, and I'm on the other side of the mountain. So, I really hope we get to see this technology. But the short answer is, you're right. We've got to pull the data from multiple places. 

 I would add one other thing at the patient level, we have to really harness those predictive analytics we've been talking about for 10 years, too, to prove that you're sicker than me. And you're going to need extra resources, and you might need a discharge planning, and you might need a social worker, and you might need, God forbid, a nursing home, and we ought to be able to know all that just as soon as possible. Let's remember the World Champion, Philadelphia Eagles had great predictive analytics on the field against those lowly Kansas City Chiefs, probably better than most hospitals. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Right, right? And it clearly worked for you so that. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

And it clearly worked. That, that and the tush push clearly worked. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Clearly worked! 

So, Rick, let me turn this over to you. A couple of weeks ago you were on the program, and you made a couple of really interesting points. Right? You talked about the data. You talked about the opportunities that we have using artificial intelligence to really aggregate and make sense of that data. And one of the questions that I asked was, how do you know it's real? Right? So how do you know how to take this information, and you know, sort of I don't know, filter out the bias and really ensure that the information that we're getting out of our intelligence is something that can be then integrated within that workflow. Speak to that a little bit. 

  

Rick Howard:

 Would be happy to, and again great to be on, and certainly great to be here sharing the stage with Dr. Nash. But Dr. Nash is absolutely right. We've got a significant amount of data, even at the per-patient level that's out there. Any system is going to have to have clean data going into that system to make any sense out of it. So, data normalization is pretty much the step one. And it's not necessarily the easiest step when you're talking about data coming off of an EHR. 

But once you get past the normalization layer, then you start to really get into the exciting components. So AI can help with the ability to build a clinical model supporting a specific chronic condition and giving you those prescriptive and even predictive measures that need to be taken, or that you can start to anticipate, and how you're managing that patient, that specific patient. I'm not talking about all patients with a chronic condition. I'm talking about a specific patient. 

AI has the ability to do that by bringing the patterns together, understanding those patterns and then applying some of those patterns with additional information to a specific patient and their condition to be able to manage appropriately. 

That's the exciting area of AI, but it gets better. You start to think about that application of AI. Well, now, you've got digital assistants out there that can sit and communicate with a patient, have a dialogue with the patient. And there's been a number of studies that state, the digital assistants may actually get a more transparent data set from the patient than an individual would, because the patients are going to be concerned about being judged, or having bias against them for their behaviors, their habits, their specific norms. 

The more transparent that data is, the more rich that data becomes to be combined with the clinical data. And now you're having a legitimate conversation about not only clinical,  but behavioral activities for that patient that will better manage their specific chronic condition. 

 

Daniel Marino:

So that so that key, as I hear you describe this, right, is to take this data and to use it in such a way that we're much better informed about the patient. Right?  

 

Rick Howard:

Right. 

 

Daniel Marino:

So, Dr. Nash, as I'm hearing Rick speak to this, then it really becomes,you know, the role then, of the primary care physician, and in particular the specialist. Because I think the specialist is the one that's really been challenged here to use this to really provide more proactive care, right to think about that within their care model, and then frankly wrap around that care management service to help them drive with the patient what the potential servicing, the clinical service should be, and particularly the post-care outcome, should be. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Well, I think that's partially right, quite frankly. But I see the interface of technology and specialists, maybe in a different way. Let me answer your question first, and then I'll give you my sense.  

 

Daniel Marino:

Sure. 

 

David B. Nash MD MBA:

So sure, in ACO reach, which is largely, you know, ambulatory and then team, TEAM, which is mostly inpatient. Better data is going to mean more efficient care, less waste, better outcome, lower cost. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Sure. 

 

David B. Nash MD MBA:

But the data requirements are formidable. Now for Part 2, as it relates to the primary care doctor and the specialist, here's what makes me excited as a primary care internist. I want to have good data on the performance of the specialists in my network. And I wanna pick and choose who's gonna be in my network. Because, look the way we currently do this is the primary care doctors are in the network, and we might own one or 2 specialists, but most of them are out there doing what they've always done. Private practice fee for service. And we largely have very little idea about their performance.  

So, what I'd like to see Dan is incoming data on the performance of specialists. And then we decide who's in the network and who isn't with the ultimate goal of creating a high value, clinically integrated network, not a narrow network. I hate that term, but a high value network that can really deliver population, health.  

So I think, you know, that's where the data flow, the incoming information back to primary care on specialist performance which we could do today. We got to have the moral authority and the economic incentives to make it happen. 

  

Daniel Marino:

So if you're just tuning in, I'm Daniel Marino. You're listening to Value-Based Care Insights. I'm having a great conversation with Dr. David Nash and Rick Howard, talking about population, health and AI, and kind of the next generation of value-based care.  

So what I'm hearing you say, Dr. Nash, one of the things that you see as a real opportunity here is to aggregate this new, you know, this set of data. These new opportunities, using AI to help to inform us about what's happening with our network. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Exactly. 

  

Daniel Marino:

To drive that awareness with our specialists in the hopes of making some type of behavior change. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Right. So let's look around the marketplace right now, right, in the middle of 2025. There are organizations that are stealthily committed to doing this right now. We had 3 of them on stage at our 24th annual Population Health Colloquium here on our campus at Jefferson, Philadelphia, just a month ago.  

So for example, Risant right? So Geisinger, Cone Health. These are outfits that know what they're doing. They're going to benchmark. They're going to compare data. Then, when they take additional delivery systems under the Risant umbrella, somewhere around one per year for the next 4 or 5 years. Imagine the data capabilities, of 4 or 5 places under the Risant umbrella. That's 1 great example.  

How about Craig Samitt leading longitude health with the 5 amazing, gigantic delivery systems? Imagine being poor Craig with 5 big bosses, but beside that they'll be able to benchmark, too. Depending on how level the playing field is. 

And then how about Populance? You know. Henry Ford thinks that it's got the secret sauce, and is so convinced of that that they're going to let Chris Stanley go out and sell it and deliver data and tools and care coordination and guidelines and care processes to other places. So look, this is happening. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Right. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

I think, you know the folks out there who don't track these kinds of things. And, after all, you know, this is what Rick and I do for a living in part. I think folks are going to wake up one day and say, Holy Mackerel, I'm behind the times, let's get with it, and we're not talking about just an EMR. Let's just once again. That's, that's old hat. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Going beyond EMR, absolutely. 

 

David B. Nash MD MBA:

And then the final piece for me, which is really exciting, especially because I have forgotten more medicine than I ever learned. 

I'm excited about all the clinical decision support tools that are being developed that could be embedded into the workflow, and tools like OpenEvidence. Tools that folks like Walters Kluwer are working on combining stuff like Avid and UpToDate. I mean, it's just super exciting. 

  

Daniel Marino:

It is. It’s super exciting and just tremendous amount of momentum from some of those organizations that you mentioned.  

So, Rick, let me turn this over to you, though, you know. So Dr. Nash just went through a whole host of different organizations. And you know, embedded functionality. 

When you look, and you're seeing the landscape of where artificial intelligence is going, now. I sort of put it into 2 categories right? There's the advancements of the business services, and how we can do more with less and create greater performance. But there's also a lot of clinical support services out there that AI has a big opportunity to really provide some advancement, solve some problems. 

Where do you see both of those at? Is one further along than the other? 

 

Rick Howard:

Well, I think maybe the administrative side might be a little further than the clinical side. But Dr. Nash just made an important alignment around how you support a clinical workflow. 

We need to look at things in the form of, “How does a physician get an instruction inside of their sourcing system so that they're following a best practice”? The industry calls that a computerized clinical practice guideline. AI driven computerized practice guidelines that are already interfaced, or, more importantly, interoperable with an EMR can slide that instruction into the EMR, even to the point of a change. Think about making a change as simple as going from a IV based antibiotic to a tablet based antibiotic. Most people don't understand. There's a significant cost alignment between those 2 particular distribution points of an antibiotic. 

If we can trigger that decision inside the EMR to say it's time to move, based on all of the data that the AI engine has now formulated and understands where the patient is at that particular point in time. You can now make that switch between the IV based antibiotic and the tablet based antibiotic. 

That is a simple example of a very much of a much broader application of these capabilities to drive these best practices. And the beauty of AI is, it's continuously pulling in data. So those best practices are changing continuously based on the fact that it's pulling data through. 

  

Daniel Marino:

So then, Dr. Nash and I know this is your area of specialty here. It just leads me to believe that you're hearing a lot in the media about the advancement of greater diagnosing, of, say, cancer and other illnesses that are really impacting our population. From a clinical perspective, what are you seeing in terms of that advancement of a lot of that clinical support, a lot of the clinical servicing. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Well, I think we're seeing a quiet revolution. I think our listeners are super sophisticated, and they know in fields like radiology and pathology, where machine learning has been in play now for 7, 8 years, we're getting better diagnostic accuracy. We're improving our efficient approach. We're reducing waste. We're reducing error when it comes to making diagnoses. And I'm excited about what the future potential is when we can put all of this stuff together. 

Yeah, on my phone I've got, I alluded to OpenEvidence. I mean, these are incredibly sophisticated. It's ChatGPT 4.0, almost, on the clinical side. If I had a tool like this, when I was a intern and resident, would have been the most fantastic thing. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Oh, my! Gosh! 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Saved me a lot of time. I would have slept a lot longer, so I can just imagine what my, you know, 38 year old Doctor daughter is going to have in her fingertips in the next 5 years at the bedside. So I'm excited about all of this, but I also think, you know, it's still culture change and and getting physicians to implement this into the workflow. We're only gonna do it, if it doesn't disrupt what we do every day, and if we believe in our heart that it will enable us to do a better job. And so all the technology in the world, we know culture eats technology before breakfast. So while it's great, I think we have to also think about the human machine interface and the workflow. 

  

Daniel Marino:

How about some of these companies out there, you know, and I'll bring up one. You know. We had talked about early on Artera. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Yeah. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Really allows for just a vast number of aggregation of data as they begin to look at different clinical outcomes and so forth, to create diagnosis and probability of diagnosis, and probably probability of treatment. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Yeah. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Speak a little bit about that. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Sure. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Because I think that’s really a game changer as we see it. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Sure! 

  

Daniel Marino:

And that revolution that you mentioned. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Yes, and again, you know, I'm excited about Artera and many other clinical databases which use AI enhanced capabilities. Artera is on the West Coast, and they have a 250,000 person data set of, you know, believe it or not, prostate biopsies. 

And so for guys like me, who have had a prostate biopsy, and I got it read by an academic great person at Jefferson. But then I said, hmm, 250,000 patients versus 10,000. I'd love to have my slides read by that outfit, and so I managed with my academic urologist as my great doctor, send my slides off to Artera. Of course there's Jefferson graduates at Artera to help put all this technology together. How exciting! And look! It's not the end, all or the be all, but it's certainly as from a patient perspective, I found it very reassuring to learn that, yeah, I'm in a super low risk category, based on tens of thousands of men my age with my diagnosis. 

And let's extrapolate that to pancreatic biopsies, lung liver, kidney. I mean, we're going to be able to do all of this and do it efficiently and effectively at a pretty low unit cost. 

So these technologies are amazing. And I believe that companies like Artera and many other GRAIL being another great example, you know right now, the gallery test is, I think, something north of 40 potential cancers. Well, you know that they're going to add 40, 50, it'll be 60 cancers, both, you know, liquid biopsy for solid tumors and others. This is going to be continued to be super sophisticated. 

  

Daniel Marino:

And I think just building off of that. It just creates another information point where it allows providers, specialists, even patients, to be much more informed. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Yes. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Going back to that, that overall philosophy and population health. If you're really going to make the change, you need to be proactive. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

You need to be proactive. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Totally supports it. Right? Totally supports that drive. 

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

I would say. The last thing that I'm really excited about is what AI is gonna do for clinical trials. Right? So I mean, that's a topic we could have another hour on, that. We ought to be able to reduce the number of folks in trials we could do n of one trials do them, you know, so quickly, so efficiently. Get people of color, get women get all kinds of diversity. I mean, this is gonna blow apart the sort of, current CRO structure. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Oh, it's gonna allow us to move so much faster. So, Rick, you know a lot of listeners from the provider community, right? We've got you know IT leaders on here, CEOs, CMOs, many hospital leaders. You know, it's challenging right? In my earlier comments I said “It's hard to figure out fact from fiction”. Right? What advice would you give to some of these senior leaders, the CMOs of the world, who are who are excited about this, and to be careful not to get wowed by the technology, but to really focus on those things that are going to create a lot of good value. Any suggestions come to mind? 

  

Rick Howard:

Yeah, and I actually understand where you're coming from, Dan. There's a lot of noise in the signal out there, and so we've got to separate the signal from the noise. And I think, though there are some areas where there has been some very tried and true AI based solutions. Ambient listening is one of those. What a game changer from the perspective of allowing the doctor to actually be face to face with the patient and have a conversation about the problem instead of being face to face with the computer. 

 

Dan Marino:

Sure.  

 

Rick Howard:

So I think ambient listening is one of those. I think digital physician tools, and I think Dr. Nash just spoke to one of those. Digital tools that allow the mass of information that's being created quite frankly, hourly, on the healthcare front, to be at the physician's fingertips so that they now have the information to make the right decisions. And then I'll go back to the digital assistants, giving a doctor a digital assistant so that they can not necessarily even type a question, Ask a question. And get that answer coming back to them.  

So I think there are tools out there that are going to make the doctor's life easier. And I'm sure Dr. Nash will agree with me. I'm excited, because not only does it allow the doctor to focus on the patient, it's also optimizing the doctor's visit timeframe to where we can start to eliminate some of the burnout that's being caused by pajama time, as I call it, with all of the work that has to happen after they leave the clinics, or after they leave the hospitals. 

  

Daniel Marino:

I think we're gonna see, we're gonna see this technology moving fast and furious. I think I think at the end of the day it's gonna come down to what makes sense for the organization, and how you could truly incorporate that change, those opportunities into your population health strategy.  

Well, gentlemen, I mean I appreciate your time. Boy! Quick half hour! We could have talked about this for another hour, hour and a half at least. I'm so excited to see where this is going, and I'll tell you I'd love to have you back on. And particularly you, Dr. Nash, as you start to kind of work through some of these organizations and seeing some real results of what AI can do. I mean to tell those stories is just so exciting.  

  

David B. Nash MD MBA:

Super. Well, I look forward to it. Hope you have us both back. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Absolutely! Absolutely, Rick, thank you as well, too. Appreciate it! 

  

Rick Howard:

My pleasure! 

  

Daniel Marino:

And I want to thank all of our listeners for tuning in. Without you, Value-Based Insights would not be as successful as it is. Until the next Insight, I am Daniel Marino, bringing you 30 minutes of value to your day. Take care. 

In this episode of Value-Based Care Insights, host Daniel Marino explores the newly introduced  the CMS Transforming Episode Accountability Model (TEAM).  Informed by earlier initiatives from the CMS Innovation Center, TEAM is a mandatory five-year, episode-based pricing model f or hospitals in selected geographic areas. Designed to cover high-volume, high-cost surgical procedures, TEAM represents a significant shift in how hospitals and providers approach bundled payments.  

Join Daniel and special guest Lucy Zielinski, an expert in value-based programs and HCC coding , as they unpack what the TEAM model entails and what participating hospitals must do to prepare for the January 1, 2026 implementation. Gain insights how this model influences financial performance, drives care coordination redesign, and introduces new incentives and penalties. Whether you are a healthcare leader, provider, or payer, don’t miss this overview of one of CMS’s initiatives shaping the future of value-based care. 

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE:

 

 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Welcome to value-based care insights. I am your host, Daniel Marino. On today's episode, we're going to dive into the new TEAM model that was recently released or has been discussed with CMS. For those of you that don't know about TEAM. TEAM stands for the transforming episode accountability model. It is a 5-year mandatory episode-based pricing model. Very similar to the bundled payment model or BPCI, or BPCIA that was released a few years ago, it's sort of the next version of that. And in a lot of the conversations that that we've had with a lot of our hospital leaders and CMOs, and so forth. They know that this was coming. They have an idea of sort of what TEAM is, but they're really not sure what to do about it. So we thought on this on today's episode, we're gonna dive into it. We're gonna talk about where it's at, and how organizations, how hospitals really do need to start to prepare for it. So what is the TEAM? What is TEAM? What is it based on? And the surgical episodes? Well, it's based on 5 surgical episodes. These are the high volume, high cost, surgical procedures that are done in the hospitals. So the 1st one is lower extremity, joint replacement- LEJR. Second is surgical, hip/femur fracture treatment. 3rd is spinal fusion, 4 is coronary artery bypass grafts, cabbage, and 5 is major bowel procedures. All of those again, are usually the top episodes. The one that sort of stands out when I talk to a lot of healthcare leaders is the femur fracture treatment that's not necessarily in the past been that much of a episode based component. Certainly hip replacements, knee replacement has. So this is going to be a little bit new for organizations. So a couple of things that are interesting about this, the way that CMS is pricing this again, it's an episode-based pricing model. So the thought is that there's going to be one fee or reconciliation of that fee for surgeons, for the hospital, for anesthesiologists, everyone that's included within that patient episode. And the time period goes 30 days before the episode, and then 90 days after the episode. Participating in TEAM is mandatory. They're making it mandatory for right now, 741 acute care hospitals across the country, and they've identified that within 188 which they talk about as core base statistical areas across the United States. And they're defining these core based areas as those that have historical spending patterns in some cases a little higher than others. Hospital characteristics, if some of them, let's say, have higher readmission rates than others, as well as those that have been involved in the CMS bundle payment process in the past. So you can see there's a lot of a lot of components to this. And there's a bunch of unknowns right now. And, interestingly enough, this does start on January 1st 2026. But they're using this last 2 years certainly as the look back period. So some of what we've already done, some of what has been captured within HCCs and so forth, are going to go into the risk calculation. The other point is that we just finished the comment period. So they had a comment period of a couple of months that concluded on June 10th. I have some preliminary information that was actually released by Dr. Mehmet Oz. He launched the or participated in the healthcare transformation task force, and they released comments a couple weeks ago on the status kind of clarifying a couple of the components of TEAM. 

Well, here, joining me today is my colleague, Lucy Zielinski. Lucy is an absolute expert when it comes on HCC. And certified Coder. She's helped numerous organizations and a lot of their clinical documentation redesign, particularly in the ambulatory area. Lucy Welcome. 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

Thanks, Dan, thanks for having me on. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

So, Lucy, when I when I look at the aspect of TEAM, there's 3 components that sort of resonate for me. One is the financial implication. Right? What does this mean for hospitals? You know. How do you identify that baseline? What's that overall impact to not just the hospitals, but to the surgeons. That's the 1st thing. The the second component is really around the quality. The performance measures right? So there's quality outcomes to it. There's performance outcomes that are associated with that. And then the 3rd is process right? It always comes down to process right? So what do the hospitals need to think about doing differently than they're already doing to maximize what the impacts going to be? So let's start with the financial piece. And maybe I could throw a 1st question out for you. I know that capturing the HCCs is critical, right? Because that's going to drive the risk level that's going to help to guide patients all the way through. Talk a little bit about what you've seen on the HCC capture related to TEAM. 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

Sure, Dan, as you mentioned. That financial piece is very critical, is there are 3 tracks, and that quality adjustment could be as low as 15% reduction or plus 10 on the upside. And there's a calculation, they're calling target price. And the HCCs are part of that. So they're taking this regional price for certain MSDRG or HCPCS codes. They're multiplying times, this patient hospital specific adjustment. And that's where HCCs really go in. They do that. Look back. They're proposing taking a look back 6 months right and taking. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

If I can interrupt you for a second, so that so that 24 month periods is the baseline. But hospitals have an opportunity right now to go back in that 6 month period before January first, which is really going to be July first, right? And to make sure that all the HCCs are captured. 

  

Lucy Zielinski: 

 Yes, so if they don't have a CDI program in place already, it is really critical that the providers, hospitals, providers, primary care physicians. The surgeons have a CDI program in place to capture the HCCs, and not only the HCCs, but that social risk score as well, just to make sure that that is being captured in this year in 2025. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

So I know from a finance standpoint, there's 3 tracks of participation, right? So those that are, let's say, mandated of the 741 hospitals, but do not have a track record of being involved in BPCI or any of the under bundle. They're going to enter into track one, and there's no downside risk. There's no lower performance year. It's basically the 1st year, just to kind of get your feet wet. But those that have a history are going to be entering into track 2 and track 3. And track 2, there are lower levels of risk with some opportunities for the upside. But then in track 3, that's the highest one, right? So they're going to you know, hospitals who have a history. They're going to automatically be in in Track 3. I've heard. And in some of the basic calculations that we've done, it's a pretty good swing it could be anywhere from, you know, 2 to 5,000 on the low side, to 2 to 5,000 on the high side. And basically, what that means is if the hospitals come in below, what the total cost of care is they're going to have to write a check versus if they were going to perform better, then obviously, then they're splitting the savings. Is that what you're seeing as well? 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

Yeah, that's exactly right, Dan. So hospitals may take a hit as well as even the providers if that's being passed down to them. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Well, and it's a good point, because you have to remember we're looking at total cost of care. And sometimes it's really difficult for hospital leaders to kind of get their arms around. Well, what is included on total cost of care. And it's really coming from the claims data, right? So if you're looking at what the costs are. 30 days prior to the episode, right? And the episode is the surgical episode versus the cost 90 days afterwards. That's that total cost of care. So I think it's going to be really important for hospitals to understand what their efficiencies or inefficiencies are. As we talk about perioperative in a few minutes, but more importantly than what the financial implications are to that total cost of care figure. 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

Yes, and that's why I think hospitals should be doing an impact study to determine what kind of hit they may potentially take because of this. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Because, you know, as we talked about, it could be quite great. Let's move into a little bit of some of the performance assessments. So like with many of the value-based care programs, it's not just based on shared savings. It's not just based on improving costs and so forth. Quality and performance is a critical part of this right? So, although you may do really well on the cost and reducing the cost, if you don't hit your quality thresholds. You're going to be limited in realizing some of your potential savings. From what? Within the initial information that was released on TEAM, there were 3 areas, Lucy, that I've seen that are really critical on evaluating the performance. One is tracking all cause readmission rates right? And this is something. Hospitals have struggled with and have been struggling with for years. I think the second is around patient safety indicators. And then patient reported outcomes based on those episodes. And from what I'm seeing, they're really focusing a lot on the lower extremity joint replacement in terms of the patient outcomes there. So, Lucy, given those 3 assessments anything else, you would add? 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

Yeah, Dan, so many as you know, many hospitals are already tracking those. I think what's important is that they tie them back to those episodes. And intentionally take that data and do an analysis to see how they're performing against those measures. And there's another thing that I thought of one of the other measures that many organizations track is the transitional care management visits the TCM visits that are occurred within 14 days post discharge. Although that's not part of this model, but that will provide many organizations, some insight into how they're doing. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, that's a great point, because a lot of them, you know, I think transitional care management is now starting to pick up. And many of the hospitals have done a good job with discharge management, but not necessarily with transitional care management. But you know I can't help but think, Lucy, this has to start really in the pre-surgical evaluation, right? So it's going to be so important for these hospitals and the pre-surgical evaluation team to properly screen the patient, identify the risk level, code for it appropriately and document it appropriately. So it carries it all the way through the whole perioperative continuum. So by the time you do get to that transitions of care you have a sort of a patient, specific risk, focused care plan that can help transition that patient back to the home environment. And then you're able to manage, not just to the needs of the patient, the caregiver, but specific to the risk factors that are inherent in that patient. 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

Absolutely, Dan. It goes back to what we said earlier that HCC must be captured. That's very important. In addition to that there needs to be a health related social needs screening. That's part of the model requirement. So beneficiaries really need to be screened for some of these domains. And here's where hospitals really need to understand the social determinants, because those determinants can really impact the outcome of the patient. So Hccs, performing the screenings, having that as part of the pre-surgical evaluation process is very key. In addition to that, even that care coordination is important. And I mean, I can share a personal story here regarding that. 

  

Daniel Marino: 

 If you're just turning in today, I am Daniel Marino, and you're listening to value based care insights talking here today with Lucy Zielinski, and we're diving into the TEAM model that was recent released by CMS, it's the transforming episode accountability model that's going to impact 741 hospitals around the country. Yeah, Lucy, I know you've mentioned that before that that you have a personal story on how maybe patients or one hospital didn't necessarily do a great job on their pre-surgical evaluation, and it really caused some challenges. The patient, once the patient was released from the hospital and they got to the home environment. Maybe you could share a couple of those key points with us. 

  

Lucy Zielinski:

Sure. Sure. So this was actually a real thing that happened to one of the neighbors here. She's a 67 year old female widow, living alone. Who is on a limited income and happens to be a diabetic, and she had knee surgery in an ASC. And was sent home that same day, as you know. That's what happens these days. She had some help in the home from others, but really not enough. And for a lot of reasons for physical therapy was delayed for over a week. She couldn't get around to ice her knee as it was directed. I think it was like every hour, or something like that. She ended up developing an infection. So then it was just a mess, and she tried getting into a rehab facility for physical therapy, for some treatment, for some because she didn't have the appropriate caregiver resources available to her, and it was denied. So, as you can imagine, Dan, her recovery period lasted longer than was anticipated, but even more, you know, unfortunately, it resulted in complications which resulted in her total cost of care, would it probably more than if she went to rehab. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Did she go back to the hospital? Was she readmitted, or did she go to the ER for evaluation based on her infection? 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

She went. She went to the ER then saw the orthopedic physicians. A few times they redid some stitches and some other treatment. So a lot of this, you know. As I heard this story, I thought to myself, this could have been prevented if there was this pre-surgical coordination of care plan developed early on to ask her those critical questions. Will you have the right care at home, right, and put a plan together. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Absolutely. Well, as you know, we're working with hospitals around the country on this pre, this perioperative services value stream. And to your point, the critical component of that is the preoperative evaluation that has to occur with the patient and hospitals for years have focused on improving efficiency in the OR and that's important. We've done a lot of those types of engagements. But when you think about it from a value-based care perspective, and certainly in the impact of to TEAM. You have to think about the pre-evaluation or the pre-admission testing whatever you want to call it. You have to think about it differently. We have to focus on the risk levels of the patient and all of those elements like you, said the social, determinant pieces of it, whether they have the right support structure at home with the caregivers as well as then arms around or getting our focusing our attention on the comorbidities and a lot of the chronic diseases and so forth. If we can do that  preoperatively, not only does it reduce, then, the fee for service components within the surgical episode right? Cutting down on the cancellation rates and all that other good stuff. But it really does drive the performance post-operatively in terms of being able to support the care plan. But, more importantly, as the patient transitions to home right, there is a focused care plan with the patient on how they need to recover, and it seems like a lot of that is missing. 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

Yeah, one of the things, Dan, part of the model, the requirements is that a referral to a primary care physician. It's required before the patient is discharged, and that really promotes continuity of care and a good, solid, successful transition. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, you're absolutely right. And that's a big change, too, because a lot of times when a patient goes in for surgery, it's the consult, or the surgeon right? That is, processing the pre off, and they're kind of managing the case. They may get it, you know. Communicate with the with the primary care physician, but not to the level that they're going to be mandated now, so they that has to be part of the preoperative program as well as then, the post, operative care and recovery and transition back to ambulatory. 

  

Lucy Zielinski:

Absolutely, you talked about Dan, operational changes that need to happen. And that's definitely something that I would recommend is, forming, a really a work group that is not only involving that surgical service line, but a team from the clinical, the finance quality, analytics, care, management and even value based care components to assess. How. How does the healthcare organization succeed under this program? 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, you're absolutely right, I think, in order for hospitals to really understand how they need to evolve their overall procedural service related to these 5 episodes, if you will, you need to have a multi disciplinary team that's going to participate in it. And you know, and one thing I do want to make mention because we've worked on this. I'm really proud within, Lumina, that we have a lot of tools. So any of our listeners out there that are interested. We have a TEAM readiness assessment tool, which is great because it's something easily that organizations can start to look at. It looks at the financial component. It looks at the performance and quality component. And then it looks at the operational requirements that helps to understand areas of vulnerability and really where to focus attention. The other thing that I would be happy to share, and this is free, is our perioperative services value scorecard. The scorecard has been great Lucy. I mean, a lot of people can self evaluate and determine. Well, are they, you know? Are they strong, or are they struggling within preoperative services, or postoperative care, or the recovery piece. And the nice thing about that is, it measures it against benchmarks. 

  

Lucy Zielinski: 

 Yeah, it's a great tool. Dan. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah. And I think the key is when you think about the assessments wrapping that into how you need to operationalize it right? How we need to then incorporate it into our performance drivers. And it starts with gathering the team. But I'll tell you the other piece that, and we talk about this all the time on this program. If you really want to make the change, you have to align the incentives right. And one of the things that I think will be coming out of this TEAM model is for organizations to think about how they can create a funds flow model, or some type of an incentive based shared savings component, that incorporates the surgeons. Obviously with the hospital post-acute. And even some of the hospital-based specialties like anesthesia which typically aren't involved in value-based care at all. 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

Right? Right? So it's it's developing a model and it really educating them. So there is collaboration across the whole continuum. You know, one thought I had, Dan, is as this model expands care, coordination. As you know, a lot of these services are billable to Medicare, and they could provide an enhanced revenue stream to the organization, so that that some of that could then be distributed in an incentive-based model, depending on how, how the organization performs. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Well, and that's a great point. Because when you think about that, if you're able to, if you have a robust presurgical evaluation process, and you're able to identify the risk conditions. And let's say the patients do have chronic diseases or comorbidities that could feed not only into your transition to care model which you're able to bill. You could also build CCM for that, or you can build PCM. For that. If it's really based off that single specialty which many Ortho practices are doing right now. 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

Well, and Dan in my story earlier with that diabetic patient who had the knee replacement, I think what an opportunity! If she was receiving care management services her complications could have potentially been avoided because somebody would have been involved in care. 

  

Daniel Marino:

Yeah, I absolutely. I absolutely agree with you. The other thing that I'm seeing, too, is there's a lot of technologies that are coming out right now. And the technologies really around AI, my personal opinion, it's really going to be a game changer for a lot of care management programs, and we're going to have on the show in another couple of weeks, Dr. Christian Pean. He is an orthopedic spine surgeon from Duke and he leads a technology called Revel AI. I've been really impressed with it, Lucy. It has an opportunity to aggregate a lot of data, social, determinant data claims, data and so forth. That helps to drive a lot of the risk activities pre-surgical. But that really then follows the care management process in support of the surgeons and then the hospital team, as they transition from the hospital arena back to the home environment. So I'm really excited about that one last question for you. When we think about the HCCs. And I know this is an area that's near and dear to your heart. When we think about the HCCs, how much of the documentation. How much of the of the of all of the restructuring in the pre-surgical evaluation? How much of that needs to be done? Right? So I mean, surgeons typically haven't done a good job of capturing it right? I mean, I would think if there's a place that hospitals should start right then and there it should be on identifying where they're at on their capture rate of their HCCs. 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

Yes, and this is this is your technology strategy right? What kind of information is being shared with the surgeon? How is care being coordinated between the primary care physician, the pre-testing, the pre-OP clearance from the primary care physicians, all of that that whole process really requires the providers to capture those HCCs. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah. 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

And that then would drive some of the target, pricing, too, in the TEAM model, which is, which is so critical. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

And the risk level. I think if there's 1 takeaway from our discussion today again, it gets back to that point where physicians, hospitals, they have to really focus on their providers, on the HCC capture rate. Well, Lucy, I want to thank you for joining today. This is this has been great. I'm excited for where this is going. I like all these value-based care programs. As I've said, time and time on the program. I really feel like value-based care and the changes that we're seeing. That's what's really going to help us continue to provide good quality care and reduce some of the costs, or at least slow the growth of costs. So I'm excited about the TEAM model. 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

I am, too, Dan. I think this this model really aims to promote just better care and the overall, patient experience again. Going back to that story I gave. If we could change those stories for patients across the country, it's a movement in the right direction. 

 

Daniel Marino: 

 Yeah, absolutely well, for any listeners out there that want to get in touch with you. Maybe. Can you give your email? 

  

Lucy Zielinski:  

Sure, it's Lzielinski@luminahp.com. 

  

Daniel Marino:  

And I think everybody knows mine dmarino@luminahp.com and I would encourage any of our listeners. Reach out, you know, especially if any of your hospitals are one of the 741 mandated TEAM hospitals reach out. Let's have a conversation. Happy to answer any questions, or, if anything just sort of brainstorm where you need to start. And then, you know, as we talked about here, we have a lot of tools, so there's no sense reinventing anything, I think, to be able to incorporate, some of these tools will help your team move a little bit faster. So I think with that said, thanks again, Lucy, for tuning in. I really appreciate it, and thank you for all of our listeners until our next insight, I am Daniel Marino, bringing you 30 min of value to your day. Take care. 

As hospitals and health systems continue to evolve in value-based care, optimizing the post-acute recovery process has become a top priority. In this episode of Value-Based Care Insights, Diane Shifley, Assistant Vice President of Population Health and Post-Acute Services at a major Chicago health system joins us to discuss how robust transitions-in-care programs can drive better patient outcomes. She shares insights on the critical role of early patient evaluation—whether at hospital admission or pre-surgery—in shaping effective transitions. We explore how transitional care models, including post-acute facilities and home care, can reduce readmission rates, improve patient satisfaction, and control post-acute costs. This episode offers actionable strategies to strengthen your transitions-in-care to support patients through successful recovery. 

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE:

 

 

 

Daniel Marino: 

 Welcome to value-based care insights. I am your host, Daniel Marino. Well, we have a great topic today. We're going to take a deep dive and talk about transitions of care, and in particular care in the home models. Many hospitals are really focusing a lot of their attention on transitions of care, and also these care in the home models for a couple of reasons. One it provides, if you do it well, really good quality outcomes for the patient. I think it really addresses a lot of needs for the patient as well as the caregivers. But the implications of doing it poorly result in high readmission rates, maybe without the right level of planning. You know you have higher length of stay. Obviously it affects the cost model. And again, it has some major implications to the patient as well as the caregiver. Well, I have a great guest today who has a lot of experience putting these models together has done a great job for her health system. Diane Shifley. She's the Assistant Vice President, population, health and post-acute services for a large health system here in Chicago, Diane, welcome to the program. 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Thanks, Daniel, happy to be here. 

 

Daniel Marino: 

 So, Diane, give me your thoughts and your opinions. As I mentioned in my opening comments, many hospitals, they're really focusing on that transitions of care program that really expands beyond just discharge planning. But many of them have really struggled with it. Why do you think they've struggled with really putting together these programs that have been effective? 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Yeah. So, Daniel, I think a lot of hospital systems have struggled when they think about the transitions of care program. We're being challenged in in new ways to extend services beyond the patient leaving the hospital doors. And one of the struggles I think that hospitals and staff members have is thinking about setting up a plan that is comprehensive for the patient and what I see most, and what we have really looked at in the health system that I work in is, are we setting that patient up for success by ensuring we're choosing the correct discharge disposition to start? 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, right? And then, and just kind of putting in place or understanding the factors that are going to in really influence, that that discharge plan right? So you know, almost the pre planning piece has to drive the post recovery absolutely. And so kind of elaborate a little bit on that. I think this is a big area that hospitals don't really give some consideration to. 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Yeah. And I think you know, it depends on where the patient is entering the health system and whether it's a surgical procedure, that's, you know, planned, and you have that opportunity to meet with the patient and really talk about not just what's going to happen at surgery. But even more importantly, what's going to happen after surgery and what that post surgical period is going to look like. But talking about, not just the clinical recovery for the patient, but everything else that goes with it. What kind of help are they going to need? Whether that's help, you know, with basic ADLs. What kind of you know, support are they going to need from, you know, therapies in the home and home health services? And then you have another set of patients that they don't have that luxury of where you can meet with them before they come to the hospital. But now they're in the hospital, typically for an acute event. And it's a very short window of time, you know. Typically, patients are in the hospital only for 3 to 4 days. And that's a very short period of time to get a really comprehensive program or a comprehensive plan set for those patients. And this is where I think a strong care management team in the hospital is crucial in their assessments of the patient, not just from the clinical perspective, but also from a social determinants of health or social drivers of health, I should say, perspective. What are the things that are going to impact the patient's health? Not just from the clinical perspective, but what, additionally could be impactful. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Well, and you know the typical discharge plan focuses on, say, the you know the medications that have been prescribed in the hospital, and maybe some instructions that need to be given that the patient needs to follow post recovery. When you're thinking about, say, the care in the home model or the right transitions of care plan for the patient. How do you balance the needs of the patient? Right the recovery there, but also the requirements of the caregiver right? And what the caregiver needs to sort of, you know, influence that care of the patient. In some cases, I mean, you would hope that patients do have the caregiver at home to be able to help support the recovery. In other cases maybe they don't. How does that come into play as you start to build your program. 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Yeah, so we've really leaned into. And we have in the last year developed a system transitions of program. And we had at the different entity levels, but really brought it to the system level. And we started to think about who are the key players that need to be part of that transitions of care program for the patient. And of course everyone has RNs as part of their typically transition to care program. Right? They're the ones who are calling the patients. But as we started to think more broadly about the needs of our patients, once they're in the community, we added licensed social workers to our team. We also added medical assistance to our team. And the 4th member of our team that, we added, is community health workers. And through those 4 care team members on the transitions of care team, we found that we were able to really comprehensively wrap our arms around that patient. But at the same time from an organizational and a financial responsibility of the organization we were also able to make sure that everybody was then working to the top of their license. So if there was a need that a patient had that could be addressed by a community health worker or an MA, those tasks would be able to be delegated to them rather than having the RN, who is ultimately a more expensive resource addressing those lower needs of the patient. And so they really, comprehensively work together. We're lucky that we use a platform within our EMR that helps us to coordinate that type of service through the different care team members. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

That's great. I think that care team model that you just described is something that is often missed. I am seeing more and more hospitals incorporating, say, social workers. But I really love the community health aspect of that, because I think it's really driving a lot of real effective. Let's say, you know, processes, and just, you know, additional support for the caregivers as well as the patients. 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Yeah. And I think the unique thing, Daniel, I'll just say, is that community health workers I have found have a very unique skill set to make really strong connections with patients, and we can't neglect the fact that patient experience is on everyone's mind. And we want to make sure we're giving the patients the best experience. You know, we are a industry that is all about service and what we're providing to our patients and community health workers because they are members of that community can really connect with patients in a very unique way, and patients seem very satisfied by it. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, I think so too. And I think it really just. It resonates more with the patient, with the caregiver, and really where they are in their community. Let's talk a little bit about, you know. Maybe the specifics of your of your program when you think about the things that have driven the success of your program. What are some of those critical components that you've been able to build, that you've been able to really lean on that have driven some of the success? 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Yeah. So a few things come to mind the first, and I'm kind of taking us back a little bit in the patient journey of the patient being in the hospital. And being a physical therapist by training in my background, I'm very focused on patient’s correct discharge disposition. What is the patient's functional level, and where is the most appropriate place to go? And we've created a novel process at our healthcare system to ensure that patients are going to the correct discharge disposition based on their needs. And that has led to very successful number one reduction in our skilled nursing facility usage. So we're able to send more patients home, which home is best. I will, you know. That's definitely a model I live by. But, more importantly, setting patients up to go to the correct discharge, disposition ensures that you're setting them up for success rather than failure. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Let me let me ask a quick question there, that the discharge disposition is that like the care setting? Is, that is, that care? Is that the home? 

 

Diane Shifley 

Yes, yeah. So the discharge disposition is the care setting? Is the patient going home? Are they going to an inpatient rehab facility? Are they going to a skilled nursing facility? And ensuring they're going to the correct disposition first is vital to ensuring that their post discharge recovery is going to be optimal. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

I imagine you're doing at least some of that planning at the pre evaluation stage, right? Maybe evaluating and identifying their chronic diseases or their risk level, or at least being able to give some consideration to those things that potentially could be a challenge for the patient post recovery. 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Absolutely. Yeah, preoperatively having those conversations. And sometimes they're tough conversations. Our reimbursement models and our, you know, insurances have changed as far as what they'll approve post-surgery, and we have patients who come in, and they will say, Well, you know, 5 years ago I had my knee done, and I went to a skilled nursing facility. And that's where I plan to go now. And it's sometimes a tough conversation to say, you know, you're not going to qualify for a skilled nursing facility. Home is going to be best. And then having that patient number one that's managing their expectations right off the bat. And then they have an opportunity to really understand what do they need to have in place in order to be successful. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Right? Yeah, absolutely. Well, if you are just tuning in, I'm Daniel Marino. You're listening to Value-Based Care Insights. I'm talking to Diane Shifley, and we are discussing transitions of care models, and really the post recovery stage of a hospital, and Diane is sharing some great insights. I want to talk a little bit about level setting with post-acute. With a lot of the a lot of the hospitals, you know, with some of the programs say, some of the, you know, discharge to rehab facilities or skilled nursing facilities. Sometimes that's where the challenge takes place. And patients, you know, they're not getting the right level of care, and they're going to show up at the emergency room within a couple of days after going to those facilities, alignment with the post-acute facilities, I would think, has to be a critical component of your transitions of care program. Just to make sure the protocols, the processes, med reconciliation, for instance, is aligned. How have you worked through some of the post-acute alignment, with your scaled nursing facilities over your rehab facilities? 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Yeah. So you know, what we have found is, it has been very beneficial for us to create preferred networks for our post-acute providers we have successfully created a skilled nursing facility, preferred provider network as well as home health. And that's vital to what you had stated is that entering into these agreements in this network, we have a shared understanding of the quality of care. We want to provide these patients, but we also align on what our goals are for patients in the post, acute setting, managing those readmissions, managing length of stay, managing, total cost of care, and are many times where networks are developed, and it's the hospital or the healthcare system coming to those post-acute providers and kind of laying down the hammer. This is what you need to do. And we've taken a unique approach at our organization to really come to the table and create a 2-way street with these post-acute providers to say we are invested just like you are in these patients. We want to help each other. We want to understand what your pain points are, so that we can help improve our, you know, connection and our process. And at the same time we want to be able to give you feedback. And so creating that true partnership with the post acute providers, that's where you really get their the engagement. And that's where you're going to start to see a change in performance and the quality of care. They provide their patients because they truly feel that you're not just dictating to them what they need to do, but that you're a true partner in helping ultimately the patient, you know, succeed. 

 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah. And you're working together with them to kind of managing to the same goal. You know, we're doing a lot of work right now with hospitals, with the new team model that CMS has launched, and for some of our listeners who aren't aware of it, there's 5 procedures that are bundled, that are included in the TEAM model that are basically coming up with one episode pricing model that affects 30 days before the surgical activity. And then 90 days after. And when you really dive into this, there's a couple of important drivers there. One is the pre-surgical evaluation. But it's also the post recovery, and how you're handling post-acute. And what we found is as organizations are considering their success around the team model, particularly for the 3 that are musculoskeletal. Those that have a strong relationship with the post-acute providers are seeing much better outcomes those that don't are seeing much higher readmission rates. So to your point, I think, having that aligned network and that ability to really share information, be transparent, have the same clinical protocols, that sort of thing. You're not only doing a great job for your outcomes, you're doing the best job that you can for the patients. 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Yeah, and I think a vital piece to that of when you create that dynamic between post-acute providers of it being a true partnership, You open lines of communication and communication is the key. In order to have patients be successful in that post acute period. If you have a provider in the post acute setting that doesn't feel that number one. They don't know how to get in touch with you. They don't know how to, you know, avoid an ED admission, because they can escalate back to the system to say we have an issue with the patient. We want it addressed immediately. Then you've really, you know, broken down the system. And you're right. That patient's going to just end up right back in your emergency room department. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, you're absolutely right. So let's talk a little bit about the care in the home model. One of the big areas. The big growth that we're seeing is the growth in remote, patient monitoring as a mechanism to help support the post hospital recovery. Maybe to then begin to model monitor things such as blood pressure, or, you know, diabetes, or maybe even just to track infection rates. Have you incorporated remote, patient monitoring into your transitions of care program? How is that? How have you adjusted to that? 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Yeah. So, Daniel, we haven't incorporated any remote, patient monitoring yet, but I think it's absolutely a topic that is on the table that we're willing to look at and explore. And I think as our patient populations, you know, continue to grow. We have to think outside the box of How are we going to engage with patients and understand of how we can recognize the patients that are at the highest risk, and that are at rising risk? These type of devices would ultimately elevate to our transitions of care nurses or team members who needs a call today. Who do I need to check in with? And then you're utilizing your resources to the best of your ability, and that's where I see in the future at least, our health system looking to incorporate them. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, I think it's just another tool, right? Especially if patients are, you know, being discharged to the home environment. It's just another way of being able to connect with them in more of a real time basis. So yeah, I agree with you. Let's talk a little bit about outcomes. I would imagine that as you're building your processes, and you know, as you initially build your processes and then ongoing, you have to be looking at data, you have to be looking at KPIs. What are the things that you've been tracking just to one identify some potential challenges in the process, but also to be able to, you know, maybe celebrate the successes? 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Yeah. And I think your point to celebrating successes is really important. And what we have developed with our transitions of care program is both leading and lagging indicators. And some of the, you know, leading indicators that we're looking at, which is really important from the staff perspective, right? To understand what they're doing and how impactful it is. But we look at our reach rate. How many patients did we intend to reach out to, and how many were we successful? Additionally, we look at how many patients we enrolled within the program. So after we talked to them, were we able to enroll them in the transitions of care program? And then for our lagging indicators. We're, of course, looking at an all cause readmission. We're looking at the timely follow up. So how quickly did they get into their PCP following a discharge for that follow up of, you know, maybe their acute chronic condition, or even post surgically did they get into their appointment. And then we also track some ed utilization metrics as far as how much, how many times a patient, you know, went to the ED. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, those are great. Well, I don't know if you could share any of your indicators, but I can only imagine that your ED readmission rate and all cause readmissions has to have improved. I mean, just in terms of just creating that awareness and that management of the process. I can't help but think you've had a lot of success. 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Yeah. And you know, our system transition of care program is still fairly new as far as for our organization goes. But in the short period of time for one of our value-based care contracts we were able to see, you know, about a 1 in 1.2% decrease in our readmissions, which was which was nice, and we anticipate that as we continue to advance the program, we'll continue to see a decrease. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, that's great. So there's a lot of listeners who are obviously very interested in this topic. I'm sure, for any of those that are listening, particularly the providers, any advice that you'd give them? Where? Where would they? Where should they start as they're thinking about? Maybe really expanding their transition to care program, or maybe building out their care in the home program. 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Yeah, So, Daniel, I think the word or the piece of advice that I would provide is sometimes the best thing to do is to start small. A transition of care program can be overwhelming. How do I start it? Who do I call? How do I get folks? But I think most importantly, is, if you identify some key team members that can make some outreach to patients and make that connection with patients, it may not be large scale. But it's somewhere that you can start. The other thing that I would recommend is write out a roadmap of putting yourself in the patient's shoes and understanding what that journey looks like, and where are the points where you want to increase coordination. You want to increase communication, but keeping the patient as your north star, I think, will lead everybody in the right direction. 

 

Daniel Marino: 

 Yeah, that's great. And I and I like what you said about creating your process flow right? Process flow it out. And I think what my big takeaway from our discussion today is you did a lot of pre-planning. Right? You're evaluating the patient, either when they come into the hospital or before they have surgery that's helping them, not only to support the care that's being done in the hospital or in the or, if you will, but that's the beginning part of your discharge plan, and the plan that you need to have in the event that they transition back to their home. And I agree with Diane, I think, to be able to process, flow that out is really critical. And the other thing that I really like is measure it right. You're not going to be 100% perfect on day one. But have your metrics to begin to measure that along the way. 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Yeah. And then, Daniel, the last thing I would say is that I think you know people are complicated, and what I mean by that is that it doesn't just take one discipline to solve the patient's issues or problems. But creating that interdisciplinary team that includes community health workers includes mas includes social workers includes RNs, you're really able to provide comprehensive care for patients, and we'll be able to see outcomes that, you know, are successful. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Well, and I like the team model that you talked about with the you know the community health worker as well as the social worker and RNs and the medical assistant, because I think if you do it right, you're really able to share that resource the right way, right? So it doesn't all have to be Rn driven, and you probably really get the best possible outcomes that you can. So I really like that. Well, Diane, this has been a fabulous discussion. I really appreciate it. And I'm a firm believer, certainly not only from a value-based perspective, but certainly from a patient perspective, that the more planning we can do, and the more that we can take advantage of these care in the home models, I just think it's the right thing to do for patients, and it just helps the industry overall by reducing costs and creating a lot more efficiencies and better quality outcomes. So I good luck to you. I'm really impressed with what you put in place. 

 

Diane Shifley:  

Thank you so much. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

And to our listeners. I want to thank everybody for tuning in. If you have any questions or want additional information on today's topic, please feel free to reach out to me at dmarino@luminahp.com as well as just luminahp.com, and Diane. One thing I forgot to ask is if any of our listeners today are interested in connecting with you. I'm assuming you're on Linkedin? 

 

Diane Shifley:

I am. And this is a topic I'm very passionate about. So yeah, you can find me, Diane Shifley, on LinkedIn. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Great. Well, thanks again for everybody for tuning in until our next insight. I am Daniel Marino, bringing you 30 min of value to your day. Take care. 

In this episode of Value-Based Care Insights, host Daniel Marino explores one of the most pressing issues in healthcare today—workforce engagement and retention. Since the COVID-19 pandemic, healthcare organizations have faced unprecedented levels of burnout, turnover, and staffing shortages. Daniel is joined by Tanya Allee, Vice President of Patient Experience at Campbell County Health, a rural health system that is making meaningful strides in workforce development. Tanya shares practical strategies and initiatives to boost staff satisfaction, improve retention, and create a healthy culture of support and engagement. Tune in for valuable insights on how health systems can navigate workforce challenges and create a healthy organizational culture resulting in better patient care. 

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE:

 

 

 

Daniel Marino:

Welcome to value-based care insights. I am your host, Daniel Marino. Across many of our healthcare organizations, whether it's a hospital or a medical group, health system. Focusing on workforce culture, workforce alignment and just the experience of the of the workforce has been top of mind for organizations, really, since the pandemic. And maybe even before the pandemic. What we saw was after Covid, a lot of high turnover with staff just getting burned out, particularly in nursing. And we talked about that on this program before, where you know the burnout factor is really high. The stress level is really high. There's been challenges with working remote and then hybrid. And now there's a big push to get everybody back into the office. It's not really affected healthcare too much, because at the end of the day we need to be in the clinic or in the hospital in order to take care of patients. But this this drive to improve our workforce experience, and making really our staff and our physicians, our providers, happier and more engaged in the work that we're doing is still a major focus. And still is a major challenge for a lot of organizations. And if you think about it, it's a challenge for all. But it's particularly a large challenge for rural health providers. Rural health providers find it difficult to recruit staff. So oftentimes what they do is they'll put in place some good training programs and group development programs. And if folks get frustrated and then they leave again, major disruption major cost, human capital is always difficult to replace.  

Well, I'm really excited today to have a great guest. A lady who's been working in this space for some time. Tanya Allee, Vice president of Patient Experience at Campbell County Health. It's a rural health care provider. Tanya has been leading the workforce improvement initiatives at Campbell for some time, and just has a great amount of knowledge as well as I think, some, some wonderful wins and suggestions for us as we think about tackling the workforce challenges and improving our overall experience of our staff. Tanya, welcome to the program. 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Thanks, Dan. I'm very excited to be here today and visiting with you. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

So, Tanya, when you look across the country and you hear about many of the challenges that organizations have. Healthcare organizations have. What do you see, as really, you know, some of the largest challenges that we're facing these days? 

 

Tanya Allee:  

I think you did a great job on hitting on a few of them right off the top. We've got significant turnover. We've got competition pulling because we don't have a huge, vast staffing resources to pull from. And so we're competing with other organizations. And certainly, as you mentioned before, our rural health care is also very difficult to get people out here in some of the cold weather and lack of some of the opportunities that they would have in some of the bigger locations. So I think that that does make a big difference in what we can pull in and what we can keep, and so managing our staffing, managing our turnover, managing that engagement within, and really creating a culture where people want to thrive and work in, come to and stay in is really our big focus. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Well, and it's a I sort of describe it as a slippery slope of challenges right? That sort of feed off one another. For the staff, if you're short staff, then the staff that are there become even more challenged and more burned out. And then, if they leave, or they don't see some progress, or maybe we're putting pressure on them to fill in for the staff that has already left right? It just exacerbates the problem. So you know, as we think about this, it's almost difficult, really, to get ahead of this. If you're going to put in any type of improvements. 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Yeah, I think the slippery slope was a perfect analogy. And I think that's exactly what we've been up against. And assuring that we can still provide high compassionate care with teams that are overwhelmed and burdened and burnt out, and pulling extra shifts and managing extra responsibilities and duties. It's a lot to ask. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Do you see differences in some of the challenges that staff are facing? Is there differences in the challenges with the clinical or the nursing personnel versus the administrative or non clinical personnel? Or is it really that same frustration, level? 

 

Tanya Allee:  

I  think the frustration level is probably pretty comparable. However, I think, on the clinical side it's certainly more intense in the fact that we don't have a lot of capabilities to backfill. And the clinical needs in our community, and I'm sure in many others are rising, our patient volumes are increasing, the acuity is increasing, and so the need for adequate qualified staffing is also increasing. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Right? Yeah, absolutely. You know, when, when we've when we've spent some time working with organizations, and we've done a little bit of work here and there with trying to improve workforce, and particularly around, you know, like the OR improvement, and so forth. Oftentimes staff look to leadership that says, well, leadership isn't doing this or administration isn't doing that. I don't really see that as the case. I think it's really an organizational change that has to occur now. It probably starts with the leadership, but at the end of the day, if we're really going to improve the whole workforce experience, in my opinion, it needs to be an organizational commitment. What are you seeing as you started to make some changes in your organization? 

 

Tanya Allee:  

I love that analogy, because that was a huge part of the conversation when we initiated our culture PIT team. Where does this really need to lie? Where's the responsibility at? And there was a lot of back and forth within our champions of it absolutely needs to be from the top down, and others would say, Nope, definitively, it needs to come from the bottom up. We have to have that engagement infused. And really to your point, what we came to an agreement on is ultimately everyone needs to be engaged. Everyone needs to have that ownership. Everyone needs to be empowered to create the desired outcomes and results, and the culture that we want to work and live and thrive and serve in. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah. And I don't think anybody will argue with that. I mean theoretically, that makes really sense, I think, where the rubber hits the road is where you start right? Because it's overwhelmed right when you think about it, that you know, if you, if you come to the realization that this needs to be an organizational based initiative, you know, where do you start? So where did you start as you started to have that conversation, you know, with your colleagues, and with the with the staff, and so forth? 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Well, you're exactly right. And we initially started with a small group of leaders or champions that we knew were very strong outside of the box thinkers and really started plugging into where are we at? What are the issues or concerns? And then looking at what are the desired outcomes? What are we trying to achieve? What are we trying to accomplish? What kind of environment do we want to come to work in every day? Part of our mission vision is to be the 1st choice in healthcare. And that's not just for our patients and residents, but it's also for the people that we employ, the people that work to serve those patients and residents. And so we had a lot of very detailed, quite frankly, raw conversations. There was a lot of back and forth. There was not always agreement. And I think ultimately that's what catapulted us into some of the initiatives that we ended up going live with. I think those ideas, and challenging each other, and being open and willing to have some of those more difficult conversations amongst the team really helped move us forward. And ironically we went back and forth, and we had tapped into multiple resources and multiple different ideas. And everyone brought something to the table. And really, in the end, after all of those discussions, we came back to framework that we had actually initiated over a decade ago. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Wow! That's great. 

 

Tanya Allee:  

It wasn’t new, and that's what was the best thing about it. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, yeah. Well, those you know clearly, I mean, that was the value, the values that were inherent in your organization. But I love that approach because, you know, againpulling people together and aligning around the vision of where we want to go. You know it's an old adage,if if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there right? And I think to be able to get folks together and align around what that future vision is. Your billing consensus, your billing alignment, your billing building, the realization of what it's going to take for us to get there. But you know, at the end of the day I mean, it sounds like it really came back to what was what was the initial value drivers of the organization. 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Yeah, yeah, it was. And I do think that gave us a little bit more solid ground to reopen this initiative or this movement, if you will. Because it wasn't the next new flavor of the month. It wasn't something that we were going to dive in and then lose steam on. It was something we'd already committed to like, I said over a decade ago. And so it was much easier to get buy in and get people to participate. And again, basically, we just need to figure out we've got the basics. We've got the bare bones. How do we recommit? How do we reconnect? How do we reinforce the accountability around the things that we already stand behind. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

If you're just tuning in, I'm Daniel Marino. You're listening to value-based care insights. Having a wonderful discussion with Tanya Allee, Vice President of Patient Experience at Campbell County Health. And we're talking about improving the workforce and some of the initiatives that Tanya's deployed as she's been able to tackle this within her organization. Tanya, when you when you started this though did you form a task force? How did you get? How did what was this the structure you put in place to get input right? Because I mean, frankly, I'm assuming you went out there. And if staff are frustrated, I mean, Heck, you could walk down the hall, and you can probably get a ton of opinions. How do you? How do you create some type of a structured approach to not only get the opinions, but kind of coordinate those opinions until some into some type of an output? 

 

Tanya Allee:  

And really it was we very strategically aligned culture champions that we knew would be willing to be raw and forthright with what's going on, and what we have some opportunities for. But would equally be solution seekers and be willing to say, and here's what we can do. And here's how we can tackle this. And here's how we get to move forward. And so it was, it was very intentional, and I have to say I feel personally, we knocked it out of the park. The group that we pulled together for this were just absolutely beyond exceptional. And I said, tough conversations, but the outcome was phenomenal. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

That's great. That's great. Well it sounds like this is what you did. You want to have those formal leaders. But you also want to have the informal leaders right? The informal leaders who are the influencers. And you know, as I've said, for many, many years, even when I used to manage a lot of my medical practices, the informal leaders were more influential than even the formal leaders, right? Because they were the ones that were involved in kind of managing the conversations around the grapevine. So that that sounded like, you know, a lot of what you've been able to do. Talk a little bit about some of your initiatives. What were some of the things that came out of that group that all of a sudden started to propel you forward. 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Well, I think the biggest thing, and that taps in completely to those champions throughout the entire organization. But one of the big movements, the big focus was the “We are CCH.” So we were trying to break down silos. We were trying to get people collaborating together and reinforcing that we're all here on the same ship, trying to accomplish the same thing. Which is to provide the best compassionate, patient care. And so the “We are CCH” became our phrase our go to phrase, that's what represents all of our standards. It kind of summarizes everything, and everyone is used to that now. And so we hear that regularly throughout the halls and within meetings, and sometimes when behaviors or things aren't aligned with what we are, what we're doing, we'll hear people say, hey, “We are CCH” and this is how we're going to move forward with this, and it reinforces the solution seeking opportunities versus the problem presenters. 

 

Daniel Marino: 

Right? Well, it sounds like that mantra was probably, or that phrase was probably the element that really allowed you to kind of get past the challenges or currently getting past the challenges, but leading you to what the vision is going to look like, right? Because it's just early on, I mean, at the end of the day. We all have to collaborate around what a future vision is going to look like. And that phrase probably helped you get past some of the challenges and keeps you on that right path. 

 

Tanya Allee:

Exactly right. And we refer back to that very frequently. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

So when you started this, you know again the staff, both clinical, non-clinical, I mean, critical to the organization. But you can't forget the physicians right? And the physicians are extremely influential, you know they drive the patient care right? How did you communicate with the physicians? Were they part of the process? Did they provide that input? Where did they fit in? 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Well, we initially rolled this out with just our department leads, managers, directors, supervisors. Then we started to infuse that into all staff. And so our culture champions, with all of their enthusiasm and energy, went to all of the staff meetings and shared the initiative and the movement, and where we were going where we were headed, and excitement behind that. And then the final step has been to start, including those providers in those conversations inviting them to the staff meetings. To be part of our challenges every month and making sure they're well informed of the initiatives that we're rolling out, and eventually we'll be taking some additional steps to continue to engage them to become additional champions for us.  

 

Daniel Marino:  

Well, I would. I mean I would assume that your physicians have to be pretty excited about this, because typically physicians and providers, if there's challenges with the workforce, if there's high turnover, you know, they're the ones mostly impacted and affected. So I would assume that they would be excited. And for the most part pretty supportive of the direction you want to go. 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Yeah, we have not seen where we're getting any significant pushback. I would completely agree with you on that. I would like to make that assumption as well. And I know we've got some just like we did with the leaders. We've got some phenomenal physician champions that we'll be tapping into more and more to help kind of spread that eagerness and that enthusiasm for where we're going. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, that's great. So why don't you share with us? Maybe a few of your successes? What are some of the things that I guess maybe you're particularly proud of with you and your team. And you know, as you kind of look back, what were some of those good success stories. 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Well, we with a few of the initiatives that we've rolled out, and “We are CCH” being a huge piece of that. We've had so many success stories. I was just in a meeting yesterday, and people were sharing that we've created this environment we are creating. It's still an active process.  

 

Daniel Marino:  

And it always will be right. This is a journey. 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Right. And so we were really creating this environment where it's safe to have these conversations, it's safe to hold each other accountable. It's safe to redirect and coach people back to our framework, and our standards of behavior, and leaders and staff alike are seeing that actively happening, and where people again, are being more solution oriented versus problem dumping. And so I think a lot of that has aligned with you know, this isn't just this department, or this person, or this leader or executives issue. This is our issue as CCH. And so how are we going to work to resolve that? And I think that's a critical piece. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Wow! That's great. And I'll tell you, creating a safe place within the work environment is huge. Because, you know, as we see oftentimes when we go into different organizations and we do a lot of work around process improvements both clinical and non-clinical. We often see Staff really scared to voice their opinion right? They don't feel that there's a comfortable place to do that. And I think and it's you probably see this. And you know it sounds like you have that in one of your stories, the staff have great ideas in terms of how to improve and put in place new solutions. But oftentimes they're scared to voice those opinions. And creating that safe space, I mean, that's where you really pick up a lot of the momentum. 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Absolutely. And one of the initiatives that we rolled out we're calling our quarterly career conversations. That's really the full intent of those conversations all leaders are meeting with their staff quarterly, and we have a hodgepodge of various formats that we've put together in one. So we get an opportunity to round with the employees, we get to harvest ideas and suggestions and get some additional momentum from them. We also get to provide feedback and assessing how they're aligned with our standards and their day-to-day interactions. And then we also get to align that with our strategic goals and our mission. And then finally, they get an opportunity to establish a personal goal where they feel like they're really engaged in part of where we're headed. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, well, that's wonderful. And that engagement is, I think it's critical, you know, just being able to empower folks. It probably was a breath of fresh air, I would think to a lot of folks, and especially those young up and comers within the organization. I mean, they want that right? They want to be able to be with an organization where they can grow, they can contribute. They feel like they're a part of something. 

 

Tanya Allee: 

Absolutely. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Have you? Have you seen any? Has there been any responses or feedback from patients? Have patients noticed the difference? 

 

Tanya Allee:  

You know we have had some feedback. We take in a lot of feedback in a lot of different capacities, good, bad, or indifferent, and we've noted that there's been comments from patients or calls from patients where they're saying, Hey, we've seen a significant difference. We were there a couple of years ago, and now we're seeing that the staff seem happier, they seem more engaged. They're very enthusiastic about the work they're doing. And so I do think it's getting observed on multiple levels, not just internally amongst our peers, but also for the people that we're so privileged to be able to serve and take care of. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, well, and you know, you're part of the community, and especially for a small rural organization, you know, integration with the community and with the patients is so critical. And not only are they patients that we serve, but they're our neighbors. So everybody talks right. And you know what's going on there. So I would think a lot of those positive vibes that you're getting through the organization based on some of the improvements. I mean, it has to be funneled out through the community. 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Yes, yep, absolutely, and said, we we've had our hard knocks, and we've had our obstacles had to overcome, and the community is not afraid to reinforce those and remind of those, but I think we have plenty of opportunities to celebrate the key things that our hard, hardworking staff are doing, and that our team and our executives and our board are very committed to, and it's all worth celebrating. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, that's great. That's great nice job. So when you think about where you're at now and where you want to go, a few goals come to mind? What are you looking to? Maybe accomplish immediate, say over this next year? 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Really, we want to keep the foot on the gas pedal with the initiative rolled out over the last 12 months. We want to make sure that people don't think this is just a flash in the pan, and so I think that's absolutely critical, and then continue to build on those. And so we've got some great momentum with that continuing to infuse in our providers. Certainly our new employees. We're doing a significant amount of leader onboarding and training to assure that everyone is aligned and providing the same type of interaction and communication. I think that's going to be a critical piece moving forward. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah. Well, it sounds like as you put those things in place. You're going to see some great outcomes from it, right? I'm sure it's going to decrease some of your turnover. And you're just going to have happier employees. And I'm sure the providers, as you start to integrate them more. The physicians and the staff certainly are going to come together. If  you were to think about for any of our listeners who are interested in kind of tackling these same things within their own workforce, any recommendations you can give to our listeners? Where do they start? 

 

Tanya Allee:  

As I said earlier, I think, starting with finding your internal champions. 1st and foremost, find your thought leaders. Find your galvanizers, find the people that have the energy and the enthusiasm, and that ability to see the reality and the things we have to work on. But, more importantly, the ability to figure out. Then how do we bridge that gap? How do we get to the next step versus focusing on what's not working as well as we'd like to see it. And I think by pulling those people together in a room and having some tough conversations, and then figuring out what that ultimate goal and outcome is that's going to give you the framework and the purpose to get where you need to go. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Well, you're I couldn't agree with you more. The champions are key. I also like what you did about setting the vision, and I think if I think back on how, what organizations have done, and at least the work that we've done with organizations thinking about some of the workforce challenges and the changes that they've made, those that have been able to define the vision of where they want to go have made the greatest progress. So I think that, combined with the champions. And then, you know, celebrating the wins right? Those are the other things that I've seen that are big success elements. 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Absolutely. And we're really trying to dive into that and remind people. It's so easy, I think, especially in healthcare, where we know where we're wanting to go, and we're high achievers. And so, as you accomplish things, you lose the excitement. And so we don't. We don't want to let go of that. We want to recognize all the small little wins. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah, that's great. Well, if any of our listeners have questions or they just want to connect with you, I know you're on LinkedIn. Would you mind sharing your LinkedIn? 

 

Tanya Allee:  

No, not at all. Please feel free to reach out to me. It's Tanya Allee on LinkedIn, and I'm happy to continue to engage in these conversations and brainstorm with other leaders, and what they're doing, and how we can maybe collaborate to continue to make healthcare a wonderful place to work and serve. 

 

Daniel Marino: 

 Well, I agree, and sharing the stories and sharing ideas, I mean no sense reinventing the wheel. I think the more that we can collaborate as a network, you know. That's really key. Well, Tanya, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your story. I wish the best of luck to you and to Campbell, and to your organization and to the staff. It sounds like everybody's working really hard, and I'm so happy to hear that you all are making great progress. 

 

Tanya Allee:  

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me on today, and we're very excited to see what the future holds for us. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

And to our listeners. I want to thank everybody for tuning in until our next insight. I am Daniel Marino, bringing you 30 min of value to your day. Take care. 

In today’s episode of Value-Based Care Insights, host Daniel J. Marino Marino sits down with Dr. Amit Jain, MD MBA, Associate Professor of Orthopedic Surgery and Neurosurgery, Chief of Minimally Invasive Spine Surgery at Johns Hopkins, and Director of Value-Based Care for Johns Hopkins Health System. Together, they unpack how organizations can reduce costs while improving performance outcomes such as length of stay and readmission rates—ultimately advancing their value-based care strategy. Explore expert insights on aligning surgical services with cost-effective, high-quality care delivery.

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE:

 

 

 

Daniel Marino:

Welcome to value-based care insights. I am your host, Daniel Marino. Organizations that are focused on value-based care performance continue to think about how they could influence total cost of care for a lot of their services. And let's spend a second talking about cost of care. When we talk about that, it's not necessarily the accounting cost of what it takes to produce the service, although obviously that's important. But total cost of care really focuses on what we let's say, charge the insurance companies for, or what the patient is responsible for. It's that cost to provide the service to the industry. And there's a lot of influences around that total cost of care number. So, in other words, if you're inefficient in providing the service, if you're not anticipating some of the challenges that occur with the patient. It's going to increase your total cost of care. There's also performance outcomes that are associated with that total cost of care. So, for instance, length of stay within the hospital. Readmission rates, all of those performance indicators, again, directly related to your efficiency and your ability to create the right level of cost of care. So, some of the biggest influencers, maybe the biggest influencer of total cost of care, is how we perform our perioperative and surgical services. It's no secret that surgical services for a hospital or health system could make up anywhere between 65 to 70% of their total revenue. So, you know, again, it's very impactful when you think about what it means to that organization. Yet the inefficiencies that occur out of within the OR could really drive, or, let's say negatively, influence a lot of your performance outcomes.  

 Well, I'm really excited today to have a guest who is really an expert in this area, Dr. Amit Jain. He is the associate professor of orthopedic surgery and neurosurgery, and chief of minimally invasive spine surgery at Johns Hopkins. Dr. Jain also serves as the director of value-based care for Johns Hopkins. Health system. Dr. Jain. Welcome to the program 

 

Amit Jain:

Thanks so much, Dan. It's really a pleasure to be here and talk about this topic that's near and dear to my heart. I think value-based care and perioperative services, and where the 2 meet is exactly the space where a lot of innovation can happen, and a lot of great conversations can take place. So thanks for having me on the program 

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah, my pleasure. Glad you're here. So let's jump into that. When you think about perioperative services or surgical services. What do you see as the biggest challenges that are impacting total cost of care? 

 

Amit Jain:

Yeah, as a practicing spine surgeon, I can tell you, surgery is not cheap. And it's certainly a big ticket item for any revenue of a hospital. It's also an opportunity to think about value for the patient. And how do we improve outcomes and try to control costs in a manner that's appropriate and efficient. I think there's a lot of factors that allow perioperative services to be an interesting area for value-based care. Starting with the fact that we don't always know how to define the episode itself. So, for instance, we don't know where to start counting the cost. Is it before surgery? Is it at the time of when the patient steps into the hospital? Is it a time of discharge? What about the post? Acute phase? What about all the various aspects to who should be getting surgery like the appropriateness of selection, patient optimization. So there are so many factors that go into it. And all of these things really drive up the cost of care, and individually can modify the outcomes and value. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, I would agree with you. And I think a lot of folks. You know, a lot of organizations approach this by kind of each of the areas as you mentioned that go into the perioperative surgical episode. Right? So they. So when you really think about it, the surgical episode, there's 4 key areas there. It's the preoperative component of the episode. It's actually the surgical episode. It's the post-operative recovery. And then it's the recovery of the home. So why do you think that it's been difficult for organizations to think about those 4 episodes in its entirety, or even really to think about each of those episodes individually? 

 

Amit Jain:  

I think a lot of it has to do with our traditional setup of where the boundaries of the hospital start, and where the clinicians who are bringing these patients to the hospital for a given procedure or surgery live. And having that coordination between the 2 groups is of prime importance. So there are somewhat different challenges in terms of scheduling efficiencies, resource, utilization. There's high variability in processes and practices among patients that are being signed up for surgery. There's lack of data, driven decision making oftentimes. And you know, ultimately, I think there's siloing of communications and collaboration which are all areas that really influence how these patients come to the hospital, who's going to manage them during their hospital stay, what's going to happen to them at time of discharge, and what their overall cost trajectory is going to look like. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Right? Yeah, I would agree with you. And I think it's that. You know, as you talk about that, I think it's just that that lack of coordination. Right? I mean, when you think about a patient that's coming in for surgery. You know you've got the PCP. That may be involved in the case. You have obviously the consult of the surgeon, but then you have the anesthesiologist, and then you have the nursing staff. Right? So you know what I could just see as a challenge is that inability, or that that lack of continuity coming together to really proactively manage that patient before they even step foot in in the OR. 

 

Amit Jain: 

No, that's exactly right, and I think places that do it well recognize the importance of creating that synergy and having that upstream optimization and expectation management, and then how that drives care management both in the hospital and post discharge. At the end of the day it takes a village to take care of a patient, because it's not just about the surgery or the procedure. It's about all the other stuff. It's about getting the expectations right for the family and making sure that they have care partners to help in that process. It's making sure patient is optimized, you know, months in some cases in advance. It's making sure that all the right stuff is set up so that their length of stay can be optimized and so on. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Well, absolutely. And I feel like organizations who've done a good job in this arena, who have the right level of outcomes put in place programs or a methodology that really allow them to be proactive with the care of the patient. In other words, they start to anticipate some conditions before you know the episode occurs, and it provides them a better opportunity to then manage the recovery. So with that being said, as we dive into kind of the different elements that really drive the performance of value-based perioperative services. Talk a little bit about what you see are kind of these best practices around the preoperative services that occur. 

 

Amit Jain:  

Yeah, I think it's I really can't emphasize enough the importance of preoperative optimization and expectation setting. And I think this has to happen both at the level of the surgeon or the proceduralist, but, even more importantly, has to happen at the level of the anesthesia team and the people who are going to be helping take care of the patients in the or and post operatively. So I'll give you a very concrete example. At Hopkins we have what's known as the PEC Center, which is the preoperative evaluation center for patients who are essentially optimized and evaluated for both their risk factors around surgery, but also kind of thinking about ways to get these patients ready. So, looking at someone's diabetes, hemoglobin, A1C. Looking at their overall profile of frailty. Thinking about what we need to do in terms of managing their long term medications in the perioperative phase. All these little things, which I think historically, are kind of relegated as afterthoughts are just so important in driving those outcomes and making sure that patients can recover quickly from this and actually have optimal outcomes from surgery or procedure. So I think that's just one area. And there's many others. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, but I love that. I love that as an example, so I can't help but think that through that preoperative clinic that that you were describing. I mean, not only does it does it help with sort of proactively identifying issues and managing the episode, but I would certainly think it has to help with aligning communication. Right? So you have the anesthesiologists and the OR staff, as well as then the surgeon collaborating on what that communication needs to look like to get the best possible outcomes. 

 

Amit Jain:  

That's exactly right, and I think more so than that. It also sets the expectation with the patient that what they're going to be dealing with is one team that's working together to create the best possible recovery pathways for them. Another area of this that I particularly feel to be very helpful is having every patient come in for a preoperative visit. So, in other words, as a surgeon doing an expectation, setting talk with the patients, and for many of our programs like joint replacement, which are fairly standardized. We even have classes where the patient and the care partner have to come and take the class ahead of time, and that way they can understand what to expect after surgery. How do you help as a care partner at home when the patient gets discharged. And those are the kind of conversations that are so crucial to avoiding readmissions, avoiding bounce backs and other problems that patients anticipate. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

If you're just joining us. I'm Daniel Marino, and you're listening to value-based care insights. I'm having a fascinating discussion with Dr. Amit Jain, who serves as the director of value-based care for Johns Hopkins health system. We're discussing improving perioperative services to enhance value-based performance. Dr. Jain, I love that because I'll tell you in a lot of the research that we've done and a lot of the programs that we've put in place around helping organizations with their transitions of care. The biggest challenge that we find is being able to not just work with the patients once they become discharged or in recovery. But how to work with the caregiver. Right? Because, you know, oftentimes the patient is they're confused, or you know, they may not necessarily understand what the postoperative instructions are. So they're relying on the caregivers. And if we don't have a program that really is focused on aligning with the caregiver around the patient's condition. That's where the readmissions take place. Is that what you end up seeing a lot of times? 

 

Amit Jain:  

Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think a lot of fee for service focuses on volume. Right? Volume drives the equation. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

It is, yup! 

 

Amit Jain:  

But in value-based care, what really drives the equation is being able to manage the total cost of episode well, and to do that well, you have to make things like readmissions, never events. And we really focus on that with a laser target. And in Maryland we have a total cost of care model for each of our hospitals where it's crucial, otherwise it will totally kill us if we don't manage that well. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah. 

 

Amit Jain:  

So those are the things that really have to be done well, and having the care partner be an integral part of that team so that they can help manage the expectations they can provide the care to patients. They can anticipate problems and speak up, and, you know, provide the care that the patient needs is so important 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Oh, absolutely. I mean that transition to care program. I mean, it's only one part. It's not the end, all be all. It's only one part, but it is a critical part on making sure that you're really managing that readmission. I want to take a step back a little bit, though, and let's talk about the actual surgical service. Right? What happens in the OR. We do a lot of work on helping organizations improve a lot of their surgical efficiencies in the OR perioperative efficiencies in the OR and a lot of times what we end up seeing is there's challenges with the typical things, right block time. Utilization on time starts and so forth. But an area that we often see is tremendous variation on the surgical service that's being performed by that specialty in your opinion, how important is clinical variation in influencing the total cost of care? 

 

Amit Jain:  

I think variation among clinicians is a major driver that is sometimes hard to control, but truly does drive the outcomes of any value-based care model. We have 12 spine surgeons. Each of us have our own unique practices, and are ready to practice medicine and take care of patients the way we want to, but the things we unify on are the same principles. You want to provide high quality care. You want to keep the net cost down. And I think that has to be part of the ethos of the organization if you want to succeed in this space. So you really, while variability in clinical practice is encouraged for innovation, and for many reasons. You don't want to be wasteful, you know. After each surgery we get a cost sheet down to the line item of every single thing. We utilized, every screw we put in, every item, every consumable. That way I can audit my behavior on the go. And that's just so helpful to alter behavior and really think about hey, do I really need that thing, hey? Is that really helping my patient. Hey? Is that really actually creating efficiencies? Or is that just? Is that just wasteful spending? 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Well, I love that because I'll tell you. And I'm a huge, you know, even when I was used to managing my practices, I'm a huge proponent of sharing that level of information, if for no other reason, to create awareness right?  

 

Amit Jain:  

Yeah. And you have to have systems in place that let you do that because imagine you can't. You know you want to do that. And you don't even have the straw software infrastructure or the technical know-how. Then that's a challenge. And you gotta you gotta invest in those things. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I agree. I think clinical variation, you know. Certainly that ability to focus on that with those outcomes is definitely a game changer. Let's shift a little bit to some of the some of the rehabilitation services. I had the opportunity a couple of weeks ago to go to the HIMSS meeting lot of technology that is out there. Some of it is around remote, patient monitoring. Some is around, including AI to kind of interact with patients. As we think about the recovery. Obviously, if a patient is able to recover in their home, the outcomes would be better. It reduces the amount of cost versus being in a rehab facility or post-acute facility. What have you seen, as far as best practices that really help to drive some of that care in the home programs? 

  

Amit Jain:  

Yeah, I just think that topic is so important, Dan. And there are 3 areas I feel are just really crucial for this. Number one that preoperative optimization and rehab, so we call it, prehab in many ways. So, in other words, before the patient even steps into the hospital, making sure that they work with a physical therapist. They know what to do after surgery in terms of preoperative education. Going back to that joints class example, I think those kind of educational tools are super important to prepare the patients for what happens after surgery. The second area that I think is really important is eras protocols, and I'm not sure if you know what that is. That's the enhanced recovery after surgery protocols. We have universally gone to that for all our service lines, and that makes such a big difference in terms of reducing variability, improving optimal outcomes and getting patients essentially through the surgical process. And ideally being discharged home or home with the home, care, etc, as opposed to ending up in a facility. And even conversion of one facility, discharge to home discharge, that really changes the value equation in the total cost. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Oh, tremendously. Yeah. Tremendously. 

 

 

Amit Jain:  

And then the 3rd area that I think, is really a tremendous resource for us is having a really strong care, management and care navigation group. So, having partners who can do things like remote, patient monitoring. And at Hopkins we do that through our care at home group we also have a really great kind of hospital-based programs with these things called transition guides, which are specialized nurses that kind of help patients and check in on them or do post discharge phone calls and a telephonic pre-structured way. But all of these little interventions, you know, add up together where you can, instead of sending somebody to a sniff or to a facility. You can essentially change their post, discharged game plan and get them home safely and have them stay at home. 

 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, I mean what you're describing that that's a significant game changer, I mean, when we were looking, we've done quite a bit of work on thinking through whole episode of care, and the variance between patients going to a long-term care facility or rehab versus going to home. I mean that could add anywhere between, you know, 7, 8% on the low side up to 15% related to the overall cost. Not to mention, then, the performance outcomes that associated with it. Right? So you know, you definitely can see that. But what I often see, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. What I often see is many hospitals, they don't really think about that transition of care as a continuum right? They think about the discharge management, and they create the discharge instructions for the patient. And that's really where their work stops. And I think we you know, the goal would really be to change that mindset, to change that thinking. So it's really a continuum of care approach around what that transition needs to look like. But going all the way back to the pre-surgical testing. Right? So you can actually define what that care model needs to look like as you transition to the home. 

 

Amit Jain:  

That's exactly right. You have to think about the upstream selection on who you are signing up for surgery. You have to think about the upstream optimization. How are you going to get them best prepared for surgery? The expectation setting, then, the perioperative enhanced recovery. And then, most importantly, you really have to manage their post recovery expectations and planning accordingly, so that you get patients to a safe space, and you can manage the total cost of the total episode. I just think that's invaluary care. You have to think differently. You can't just do what works well in a in a high volume fee for service, setting. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. So when you're when you're thinking about this, and maybe with even within Hopkins, what does the governance structure look like you talked a little bit about the reporting, and, you know, sharing that level of information. But what's the level of accountability and the governance structure? Is, you know, clearly, I mean, I'm a huge proponent that a lot of these programs have to be physician led. How do you structure this so you can actually give the right level of information, but really impact the amount of change that needs to occur? 

 

Amit Jain:  

Yeah, I think it really hit the nail on the head. If you look at all the value-based care data and look at the Aco successes. The biggest successes have been in models that were surgeon led or physician led. So there really has to be a physician champion really driving it. And I think I'm a big believer in a joint governance structure where there are clinicians and administrators working together for each service line, really thinking through these problems, and I think it has to also include a nursing partners. It has to include very operative services partners like anesthesia, like supply chain as well as contracting, and others. Because I think, unless all of us kind of come together into 1 alignment, it's really hard to succeed. A good example of this is, we have really thriving programs in orthopedics and spine surgery, in GI surgery, in urological surgeries, etc. And for each of these things we essentially have clinical champions for each service line, and then we have nursing champions who really know that space well, and we have administrative teams who really work with that well, and each of them have these process of improvement and kind of driving efficiency and figuring out where the pain points are and addressing them. Because if you don't, it's hard to make you know valid improvements. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Well, it does, and it really is a change of mindset. Right? I mean, you're bringing all of these different groups together under the same goal of what's that most optimal performance outcome for the patient? And to really begin to manage the cost.  

 

Amit Jain:

And one of the areas that I think one of the groups that often gets left out is nurses and our nurses are. They really have a lot of, you know, a lot of insight into what actually drives improvement. And some of the best ideas we have in our process improvement actually comes from the nursing team. So you really have to kind of cultivate that you have to have a culture where you create a leadership structure between nurses and have people kind of striving for that high level of leadership and opportunity. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Oh, that's such a great point, you know. Nurses really do drive that because, hey? They're seeing it day in and day out, you know, and they know exactly where some of those improvements need to come from. Well, Dr. Jain, this has been great. I really appreciate it, and I think we just scratched the surface on some of these, you know, as I've said before, and I think you know, your point came across very clear. The impact on perioperative services. The impact that it can make on value-based care performance and the total cost of care is just absolutely amazing. If any of our listeners are finding are interested in finding out a little bit more, or maybe, you know, want to reach out to you directly. Can you share your contact information? 

 

Amit Jain:  

Yeah, happy to. And certainly. Please feel free to pass on my email address through Lumina, or they can reach out to me via Linkedin, happy to engage. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

Great, great. Well, thank you for this, and you know I'd love to have you back to dive into this a little bit more, because I'll tell you. There's many organizations, you know. They're struggling with this they need to have solutions. And I think, as we start to kind of think through what this needs to look like. There's just a lot of opportunities to be able to, to be more creative and and to drive those outcomes. So thank you again, I really appreciate your time. 

 

Amit Jain:

Thanks. Dan. 

 

Daniel Marino:  

And for our listeners. If you're interested in finding out more information about this topic in perioperative services and the impact on to value-based care as well as some of our other topics. Please feel free to reach out to me directly. dmarino@luminahp.com, or you can visit our website at luminahp.com. In closing. I want to thank all of you for tuning in. Really appreciate it, and until our next insight. I am Daniel Marino, bringing you 30 min of value to your day. Take care 

Artificial intelligence (AI) is making headlines everywhere—but how much of it is real, and how much is just hype? In this episode, host Daniel Marino is joined by Rick Howard, Chief Information and Data Officer at Brand Engagement Network, to unpack the growing role of AI in healthcare. Together, they separate fact from fiction, explore the opportunities and challenges AI presents, and discuss how healthcare organizations can responsibly integrate AI to improve operations and patient care. Whether you're excited, confused, or cautious about AI, this conversation offers clarity and insight for navigating the rapidly evolving digital landscape. 

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE:

 

 

 

Daniel Marino:

Welcome to value-based care insights. I am your host, Daniel Marino. You can't listen to the news, or watch anything on TV, or read anything these days without hearing about artificial intelligence and the impact of AI in all of our lives. And we're starting to see that right with using Chat GPT, and incorporating AI into our phones, and so forth. In healthcare, in a lot of the work that we all do in the healthcare community. There's a lot of conversation, a lot of excitement around where artificial intelligence is going. But there's a lot of myths that are out there. There's a lot of what I would call vaporware that is out there from technology firms, and it's really difficult to kind of guide through what is what is real and how will artificial intelligence affect what we're doing in our daily work. How will affect our patients? Versus those things that are just let's say vaporware, or things that are on the horizon, or things that we just need to get excited about. Not to mention a lot of the challenges, or some of the things that are confusing with artificial intelligence.  

Well, I'm really excited today to have a colleague of mine, a good friend who I have known for many, many years. He is the chief information and data officer of an organization called Brand Engagement Network. Ben, for short. He's been there for about a year and a half. leads the whole artificial intelligence, growth and a lot of the data build and so forth for the organization. Prior to that, he was the chief data officer for about 4 years or so for ascension health. Rick Howard. Rick, welcome to the program. 

 

Rick Howard:

Well, thank you, Dan. Glad to be here, and thank you for inviting me. 

 

Daniel Marino:

So, Rick, let's dive into this. Give me your thoughts on where you see AI now, and how do you see it impacting healthcare? And in particular, how do you see it impacting our providers? 

 

Rick Howard:

Well, thank you, Dan. I actually see AI in healthcare offering numerous applications that can significantly enhance both the efficiency of how doctors operate, and quite frankly, the outcomes and the satisfaction against patient care or improving patient care. Let me go into a couple of those, and maybe we can go into some more details later. First, AI serves as a valuable tool to alleviate the current staffing shortages in healthcare. We all know that clinical professionals are difficult to find out there. There's this extreme shortage of nurses. There's a shortage of doctors quite frankly, and Covid kind of helped that along. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Sure. 

 

Rick Howard:

Even though we had a pretty significant shortage before Covid, Covid actually accelerated some of that those challenges. But by automating some of the repetitive tasks and providing personalized patient engagement through digital AI. It enables the healthcare professionals to focus more on more on those complex challenges that they have with those patients. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Well and to your point. It probably allows I would assume a lot of our healthcare resources right, our human resources become much more efficient, be able to do more with less. Do you see AI, in some cases taking the place of some of our providers? 

 

Rick Howard:

I don't really see AI taking the place of providers. I see AI as being a significant tool to complement our providers. Healthcare is going to be personal, no matter which way you go. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Right. 

 

Rick Howard:

The you know, the transaction of a clinical professional and a patient coming together to address needs is always going to be there. I don't really see AI going through the FDA process to be diagnostic. I do see AI as being complementary. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah, kind of as a as a tool to our physicians. As to our providers. I, I would agree with that. What when you when you look at a lot of the vendors that are out there, many, probably every single digital analytics vendor or technology vendor, they have some level of artificial intelligence that they are incorporating into their products. Where do you see some of the biggest advancements of AI occurring in healthcare? Maybe, as it exists now. 

 

Rick Howard:

Well, yeah, I do see a number of advancements there. And you're right. A lot of organizations like to use the new buzzword, which is AI, or I guess the buzz algorithm. In this case. That doesn't necessarily mean that they have learning algorithms which AI is based on the fact that the algorithms are always learning as you apply data to those algorithms, and they get much more specific against the data sets that you present to them. 

 

Rick Howard:

So but I do see a lot of advancements. One of the areas, for example, is revenue cycle. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah. 

 

Rick Howard:

If built correctly on the revenue cycle side, and that, I say, if but for on purpose. Those algorithms can possess the capability to learn and to adapt. And what I mean by that is, when you train those algorithms on best practices and a comprehensive data set, it has the ability to go retrieve the right data to support billing. What that then translates to is potentially minimizing or eliminating denied claims. But if claims do get denied expediting the claims adjudication process. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah, I agree with you. I think the impact of AI on revenue cycle could be quite large. There's so many, all of us right. And I'm a old revenue cycle guy. So run a billing shop. Denial management has been like the bane of my existence. Right? And if you have some type of technology or technology that can come in that helps you think about the challenges with the claim before it goes out, or as the claim is the denied claim is coming in help you to manage it quicker. Boy. You know time is money, right? That's where I think we're going to see a lot of value. 

 

Rick Howard:

Yeah, I agree. And again, even as claims come back denied. If there's a sufficient reason for the denial, the algorithm can learn that reason. And if it learns it, then it can, then it can basically build its model to where it doesn't repeat the challenge on the next claim. So that's the beauty of AI, it's got that machine capability to do those activities and to take on those challenges that most humans won't have at a much more efficient rate than a human. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Right kind of as a, you know, a regular learning process. How about value-based care? You know, there's a lot of, the whole premise around value-based care is to look at quality, to create efficiencies, right? To bring down the total cost of care, to create some proactive care modeling with how we take care of patients. From your perspective, how do you see AI really impacting, or maybe advancing value-based care. 

 

Rick Howard:

I actually think value-based care is one of the immediate opportunities for AI for a number of reasons. But let me go into some of those. I think it's AI can support care management by providing a empathetic data driven, but yet human-like interaction with patients that enables a bidirectional exchange of information. A conversation, if you will, with that digital agent. And we can train our AI agents on very specific data sets like specific chronic condition data sets. Where it only responds to that chronic condition. Or if we want to do multiple cohorts of conditions, we can do that as well. The point being is, we can train a digital agent to have a conversation with a patient and have a very level set exchange of that information with the patient that's empathetic. I think the other component to this is did through that empathy that a digital agent can provide. It disarms the patient. Let me give you an example here. A digital agent is not going to be judgmental. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Right. 

 

Rick Howard:

It's always going to be empathetic. It's going. It's going to create a comfortable environment for that patient. And here's the real benefit to having a comfortable environment. Many patients are reluctant to be fully disclosed with respect to the things that they do that are conversation points for a care manager and that patient in managing those diseases. They don't want to say they've been having a high saturated fat, a high salt diet, because they're afraid of the result. If we can disarm the patient to have a more free exchange of information through the conversation, we get an important valuable data set from that conversation to help train that algorithm to understand how we manage that patient better on a go forward basis. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Right. So what it sounds like to me is you can use the agent then, to look at what some of the past healthcare characteristics are of that patient, maybe incorporate it with what the care pathway should be, or the clinical protocol should be. But then have that outreach, and that conversation with the patient in such a way, where you're making the patient feel relaxed. Maybe you're asking more proactive type questions. You're using this really as a complementary tool or service, if you will, to kind of drive the right level of outcome. 

 

Rick Howard:

Absolutely. And from my days as cheap data option. You know, this data is the lifeblood of any industry. If I've got more complete accurate information coming from the patient, so that I can add that to the very distinct and clinical information that I already have, you can imagine how important that data set combined is in trying to manage that patient which is the very premise behind value-based care. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Well, and I'll tell you, care managers in a lot of the work that we've done. We develop a lot of programs for care managers and help care. Managers and organizations become more efficient, right? To do more with less. One of the biggest challenges that care managers have is aggregating the right clinical data, or all the clinical data from all the sources that are out there. And aggregating that data is the biggest let's say, the amount of time. And they need to do it right before they even have that conversation with the patient. If artificial intelligence can help to aggregate that and place it into some type of a format that allows for an efficient conversation. I think that's where you're not only going to drive a lot of clinical outcomes with a patient. But you're going to have tremendous amount of efficiencies with the care managers. 

 

Rick Howard:

Well. And, Dan, you bring up an important topic right there. Clinical data, at least, the last study I have seen clinical data is doubling every 45 to 60 days. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Wow! Isn't that amazing? 

 

Rick Howard:

That is a lot of information to stay on top of as a human, whereas a machine can ingest that data, adjust its algorithms, adjust its models in seconds or minutes. And the and then be precise with the new data set. In addition to the historical data set that it was trained on so that it knows the sequence of the information to provide. So again, I think you're making an important point here is that there is just too much data out there, and it is doubling too frequently to stay in front of it all. 

 

Daniel Marino:

If you're just tuning in, I am Daniel Marino, and you're listening to value-based care insights. I am here with Rick Howard. Rick is the Chief Information Data Officer of brand engagement network, Ben. Having a fascinating discussion on AI in healthcare. Before we continue our discussion, I do want to offer out to any of our listeners. At Lumina we have what we call our AI readiness assessment. A lot of organizations aren't really sure where they are, where they stand, and being able to incorporate AI into their organization, and in particular into the culture of their organization. We have a simple 6 question assessment. If anybody is interested to help you think about where your organization is, and some of the things that might be important as you integrate that within your organization. Anyone interested, please feel free to reach out at dmarino@luminahp.com. Rick, kind of getting back to our discussion here. One of the comments or the challenges I hear, maybe criticisms, I hear a lot of times is with the use of AI. It's how we manage the bias of AI, right? And as you, you know, your comment, I think, was really interesting as to the level of information that continues to double in size right every 30 to 45 days. How do we know that AI and the information coming out of AI is correct? How do we manage the bias? 

 

Rick Howard:

Well, it's all in how you're training your AI. And quite frankly, if you're training the AI with A, you know with, without considering any of the bias appropriate associated information. Then you're training the AI on the specific data itself. Now, that brings up a different bias point. If we have data that has bias built in, for example, 30 year old clinic trials. As we both know, we have bias built in. There's not much AI organization can do because those clinical trials, if successful, are FDA approved and you have to follow the FDA guidelines associated with that with that particular set of information. You cannot stray from that. You can support updates to some of that that gets approved and gets sent out. But short of the bias built into the physical data. It's all in how you train the model. And if you're training the model, for example, specific to a chronic condition, you're training it on that chronic condition, regardless of any of the bias elements associated with the individual population, that that might be serving. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Well, and I think you have to go back to what are those? What are those leading sources? Right? What are those recognized industry. You know. I don't know main sources that have been recognized by the community as being the preferred or the best. Let's say outcomes or data source, or  what have you. Within, Ben, though maybe we can talk about it in terms of how you're solving for this. Within, Ben, as you're building some of your capabilities around artificial intelligence. How are you managing through the bias? 

 

Rick Howard:

The one thing Ben is doing that a lot others are not doing is, for example, we have our own LLM. Everybody's heard about ChatGPT, or Copilot, which are really popular applications, but they depend on the open Internet to retrieve information. We have our own proprietary LLM. It is built off of a, you know, a llama 2 model or other open source type LLM Models. But the point I'm making here is the data that everything is trained on comes from our customer. I'll give you an example, Dan. We recently did a drug adherence model for a very popular type, 2 diabetes drug that everybody's talking about today. The only data set that is used in that model is the FDA approved data that was released against that particular drug. And we went to the National Institute of Health to pull down type 2 diabetes, data. A trusted source that everybody turns to that model can only speak to the information that it has been trained on which are those 2 particular sources. It cannot stray outside. If you ask the model a question outside of it, it will tell you it doesn't have that information. It's here to provide information on type 2 diabetes, or that drug and redirect you back in that area. So that's 1 of the reasons Ben has taken the approach it has, is we're trying to eliminate hallucinations or incorrect information, if you will. As well as what could be industry inappropriate results you can get from going to the open Internet. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Wow, that's interesting. So really, the way that you're building this, it is just it's really almost restricted right? To that nationally recognized data sources. Just to ensure that the data that is sort of at the foundation or at the source of creating your intelligence is really based off that nationally recognized information. 

 

Rick Howard:

That's correct. We call it ring fence. So we're basically fencing the data that the model is built on so that it doesn't stray outside of the data set. And, Dan, you know, I come from the provider world. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Oh, yeah, sure. 

 

Rick Howard:

My passion is supporting a patient or supporting a clinician that is supporting a patient. So I am very passionate about making sure that we are diligent in following this model of only using customer provided or trusted information to build our model so that we can eliminate all of the challenges that are associated with the open Internet. Tthat helps patient care, that helps physicians, that ensures that we have an honest conversation that is accurate with that patient. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Do you think that the information that we're creating in AI, and let's say, the capabilities that AI can provide in healthcare. Do you think it could almost be too good? And and let me give you an example of this. I was at a I was at a presentation not too long ago, where a digital analytics AI vendor was talking about the ability of the solution to create advanced diagnoses. And this particular vendor was touting the accuracy of the diagnosis, and basically said he thought his solution did a better job of diagnosing a particular patient or a condition more accurately and quicker than the physicians. And of course the physicians in the room are all scratching their heads and saying, there's no way that this could happen. But it led me to think. I mean, do you feel like, maybe physicians or providers could maybe over rely on the technology? And if so, that that does create some challenges. 

 

Rick Howard:

Yeah, I would agree. In fact, there was a study. It's been about a year, maybe a year and a half ago that UC San Diego did, where it compared the responses of the LLM with the responses of the providers, and quite frankly, the LLM won when we look at that data. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah, that's fascinating, isn't it? 

 

Rick Howard:

It is. And what that tells me is that the providers are handicapped by the fact that the algorithm is being armed with the most recent information around the healthcare data that's out there that we just talked about is doubling so frequently, where the provider, unless they're spending an awful lot of time reviewing all of that material which I think would be nearly impossible, given their schedules. They don't have the benefit of being armed with that most recent data. So accuracy is a part is to my perspective, is a part of the data that you have and the understanding of that data, and how you are interpreting that data to make the right diagnosis. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Well, and I and I feel like,  it is so many AI has just so many opportunities and so many advanced capabilities that can support physicians and providers in the care that they're giving to patients. I personally don't feel like it'll ever take the place of it, and I think if physicians, as they, as AI advances, as it becomes more incorporated into the care, model and clinical decision making and so forth. I think the real value of AI is physicians using these capabilities as an advanced tool, right? One of many right one of many tools in their toolbox that they can use to get a more accurate diagnosis, maybe to create a more advanced treatment plan, to provide that level of advanced outcomes to patients, because at the end of the day. That's really what we're working towards. 

 

Rick Howard:

Yeah, I would agree. In fact, we did a little test, if you want to call it that, with a leading university here in the US. And the head of the department gave us a textbook on high-risk pregnancies, and said, I want to test what you guys can do with this. So we ingested the textbook, we ingested about 8 or 10 clinically peer reviewed papers that brought that textbook to current, and we did all this in 4 hours, by the way. So we ingested the entire textbook. We released the model to him through the conversation that he was having with our digital agent. His response was, this textbook could pass the current tests. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Wow! 

 

Rick Howard:

It's only because the model had recent information. The raw model was able to ingest it quickly and interpret it quickly, to be able to have that conversation with that with that physician, to satisfy that him that we were able to ingest and help a provider with more recent information than what they could probably get unless they want to do a lot of reading. So. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Wow! That's that is that's fascinating. So, Rick, when we look at AI right now in healthcare. You know, it's advancing quick, right? And I think there's 2 pieces of it. It's the AI advancement supporting the administrative side as well as AI supporting the clinical side. But there's a lot of what I would call vaporware that is out there right? Everybody's kind of touting that they have the next best thing in artificial intelligence. Any advice for our listeners or our provider community? How can they manage through what is considered vaporware? Maybe in development versus what's actually there, right? And how they can use the actual components of AI right now as a way of maybe dipping their toe in the water, so to speak, related to artificial intelligence. Any thoughts? 

 

Rick Howard:

Yeah, I think there are a number of ways here, and this is some of the things we would have done at Ascension, you test. You test the solution. You create pilots. You put it in a situation where you're going to evaluate its performance against the pilot. And then you do a slow but measured rollout of the technology, assuming it passes your criteria during the pilot for that rollout. I think that's the only way healthcare providers or insurance organizations, or even pharmacies and pharmaceutical companies can get comfortable with the new technology engaging their patients is to pilot this. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah, you have to pilot it. Test it right? 

 

Rick Howard:

Exactly test it. Make sure it's doing it. Test it, you know. Test it rigorously. But then I think what we have to do is, we have to be willing in healthcare to understand that we're not going to eliminate 100% of risk. You can't do it today without digital AI, or without any of these capabilities. So I think, then, adoption has to be open minded, and ready to move forward with those tools so that you can better serve your patient population that you're that you're reaching with these technology sets. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Well, Rick, this has been a fascinating discussion. I'll tell you. This is something that I just, every time I read a little bit more about the impact of AI in healthcare and talk to folks such as yourself. I learn a lot. I just get really jazzed about what these opportunities are. Really want to thank you for coming on the program. If any of our listeners are interested in maybe connecting with you or learning a little bit more about this. Any information that you can share on how they can contact you? 

 

Rick Howard:

Oh, absolutely. It's just Rick Howard at on LinkedIn, or you can reach me on my company email address, which is rick@beninc.ai. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Great. Well, thanks Buddy, I really appreciate it. And oh, by the way, I didn't, I failed to recognize. I wanted to mention this as well. Congratulations on you being on the cover story or on the cover of CIO Review. That that's huge and just, you know, a great congrats to you. 

 

Rick Howard:

Well, thank you, Dan, and thank you for having me on today. This has been a pleasure of mine to have this discussion. 

 

Daniel Marino:

Well, I appreciate it, and would love to have you back again, and to our listeners. Thank you for tuning in. Really appreciate it, and until the next insight. I am Daniel Marino, bringing you 30 min of value to your day. Take care. 

In this special episode of Value-Based Care Insights, host Daniel Marino is joined by Fred Goldstein, President of Accountable Health and podcast host of PopHealth Week, to unpack key takeaways from HIMSS25. They share their experience at this year’s conference, focusing on artificial intelligence (AI), digital technology, and future trends. Already, AI is transforming care delivery and decision-making, while digital technology is revolutionizing patient engagement and operational efficiency.  Join us for an insightful conversation on the evolving healthcare technology landscape and the trends shaping the future of care delivery, driving a more connected and efficient healthcare ecosystem. 

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE:

 

 

 

Daniel Marino

Welcome to Value-Based Care Insights. I am your host Daniel Marino. In today's episode we're going to spend a little bit more time talking about the HIMSS conference that occurred a couple weeks back. If you recall on the last episode, I had two great interviews with Dr. Allen Young and Steve Overman when we talked about their specific technology that they had displayed at the HIMSS conference. Well I'm really pleased today to have a fellow podcast host with me. He is president of Accountable Care Health and host of his own show pop health week Fred Goldstein. Fred welcome!

 

Fred Goldstein:

Pleasure to be here Dan looking forward to today's discussion, Thanks.

 

Daniel Marino:

Fred it was interesting a couple of days at the HIMSS conference what was your impression?

 

Fred Goldstein:

I thought it was it was maybe a little more subdued than usual but still a very big crowd etcetera. I thought the focus areas were interesting obviously with AI and digital health, and digital tech. Workforce that I didn't spend a lot of time on and obviously cyber security is a big issue but really where do we get to these things actually impacting the patient that's sort of where I was looking at the digital tech and AI and we're using it to improve outcomes and really move into value-based care. And I'm not sure what were your thoughts on that from a value-based their perspective?

 

Daniel Marino:

Well I agree with you I think the artificial intelligence vendors and all the technology as well as the digital technology was quite impressive. I didn't see as much around specifics to value-based care. I was hoping there was going to be a little bit more solutions maybe around care management maybe around some of the performance analytics. And it was interesting because this isn't a major focus of HIMSS. And I did have an opportunity to actually talk to Hal Wolf and I asked him that question specifically. How was HIMSS going to be positioned to support value-based care in the future? Let's take a few minutes and listen to his response.

 

Hal Wolf:

Yeah I mean we we've always been a fan of value-based care. And I think that what value-based care in the state and goal is an efficient healthcare ecosystem that tries very hard to treat individual patients with the best outcomes for the least amount. Right? And that's really what sits behind it. Now that's an old expression it actually came out of intermountain. Intermountain, you know this right? Yeah and so that I always when I heard that mantra from intermountain 20 years ago I personally adopted it and I thought it was a fantastic statement. And I think that's what really is behind value-based care we've seen pieces of it and that's what Medicare Advantage is. So that's an expression of it. Globally we're hearing the same thing. So it's not just the US thing. It's a cultural issue. We're going to see how that comes together. But I don't think what we're trying to do is recognize and say this is the best way to squeeze the highest level of efficiency access quality through the use of these digital areas. There are other things that will contribute to that that's not in our space but when it gets in digital health transformation that's where we sit.

 

Daniel Marino:

An interesting response. Fred I'm really hopeful that HIMSS does focus a little bit more attention on value-based care performance. But let's dive into some of the specifics particularly around artificial intelligence were there a couple of things that really caught your eye as you were talking to any of the vendors?

 

Fred Goldstein:

Yeah, I think the key things we're seeing, and this has been talked about at a number of last couple of years, really is this use of AI to solve various issues that are not directly patient care issues but are workflow issues. And things like that, employees going out and gathering this data or these data and then bringing them in and adjusting them. And I think we're seeing some great progress in those areas. So it was really interesting to see that the clinical side obviously is touchy. And it'll take a while for some of those types of technologies to be accepted by physicians and other clinicians as augmented intelligence versus artificial intelligence. I think that's the key as we begin talking about those areas. And you, how did you see the whole AI spectrum there?

 

Daniel Marino:

I saw a lot more advancement on the business and the administrative side of artificial intelligence. I think to your point we're just starting to figure out how the, what the clinical impact is going to be of artificial intelligence. But the administrative side or the business side related to managing say the revenue cycle or pre authorizations, those type of things, I thought there was quite a bit of advancement. One thing that caught my eye though was the role of agents. Agents within artificial intelligence and how they would interact with patients.

 

Fred Goldstein:

Yeah I think the issue of using agents is really fascinating and I think this also gets back to a few years ago. I'd interviewed an individual who was the CEO of Cleveland Clinic at the time who made the comment I think we may lose 30% of our workforce at the hospital. Because it really is taking some of those workloads by using these agents off of people and allowing them to maybe at the very end take a look at it and validate it. But really whether it's interacting with a with a patient where I've seen these call centers show 14 to 20% more efficiency by using AI. To things like you talked about using it for prior authorization or documents scanning etcetera.

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah I agree with you. There was 1 vendor that I had an opportunity to do a demo with and they started to incorporate agents within their care management services. And they bear they just started to scratch the surface on what potentially this can do. And I thought some of this was a little bit more of kind of a visionary technology because they were talking about how the agents could work with remote patient monitoring, interact with the physicians, and almost be that virtual care manager. I thought it was really interesting about how they would grab the data and incorporate into an agent and really use that as sort of a first line care manager on being able to drive some of those results.

 

Fred Goldstein:

Yeah absolutely and I think it's as we had discussed earlier you know I did a show for consensus with with mohana nagda who is at Athena health. And we talked about the use of AI for faxing ingesting that data putting it into the EHR and then actually using AI to then push it back out to the appropriate physician for referrals etcetera. and I really think you're going to see these workflow issues solved with some of these AI tools.

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah I agree with you. And Athena had a pretty big booth there they were doing quite a bit of demonstrations on a lot of their technology. The other one that I had an opportunity to talk about another EHR vendor is eClinicalWorks. And eClinicalWorks has spent quite a bit of time working through a lot of their agents, even incorporating some bots that would allow them to provide some interaction there. Fred, I had an opportunity to interview the vice president of sales for eClinicalWorks his name is Sameer Bhat. I asked Sameer, goes by Sam, what are some of the new and interesting things that he's seeing related to technology that he's incorporating into his into eClinicalWorks that would really drive performance not only for the providers but also for the patients. An interesting conversation let's listen to this for a few minutes.

I am here with Sam Bhat, he is vice president of sales and marketing for eClinicalWorks, someone I've known for quite some time. Sam great to see you.

 

Sam Bhat:

Great to see Dan. It's always a pleasure talking to you.

 

Daniel Marino:

Thank you, thank you. All the conference has been fantastic. And I'll tell you there's such a great momentum push for artificial intelligence, and knowing the experience and my previous experience with eClinicalWorks, you are always at the top of the technology game. So what are some of the things that you're doing with artificial intelligence integrating into your solution?

 

Sam Bhat:

A lot of things. We see artificial intelligence as an integral part of the entire electronic health record and the revenue cycle management. We offer artificial intelligence in two flavors. 1 is called as AI assistant. AI assistant that can help in the front office in the mid office in the back office. But then there is this new concept called AI agents coming into play that can do autonomously multiple things for you both in the front and back office. It may not apply for clinical workflows yet.

 

Daniel Marino:

But for the business workflows, I think it's gotta be incredible. Everybody's looking at trying to get more efficient everybody's looking at trying to do more with less and bring down costs I would think the agent has just got to have some incredible outcomes to it

 

Sam Bhat:

I mean we just introduced this whole agentic revenue cycle management. Where essentially you are 90% of the tasks that you do today through agentic workflow. I mean I'll give you some examples think about sending appeals to payers when you have the insurance denials. it's a nightmare sometimes. An AI agent can actually pick up what the denial reason based on that it will assimilate all the information for you create a packet submit that for you and to an extent where the agent will start communicating with the insurance on the other side, because insurance companies on the other side are implementing agents of their side. The only way to fight that battle is you got to take advantage of the agent.

 

Daniel Marino:

Well I'll tell you for independent practices and I know that's a sweet spot of eClinicalWorks that is so important, right? It's all around efficiencies and it's all about maximizing your revenue potential.

 

Sam Bhat:

Exactly. I'll give you another example. Where you still receive faxes coming into these small practices, and they don't have time to look at those documents, and an AI agent can look at the information that has come in and create a quick summary for you. And think about an EOB coming into your office. As a printed form I mean that's still happens still 10% of the payments are still coming it printed EOBs. But they take 90% of your staff time to post the payment.

 

Daniel Marino:

Can you imagine the productivity that's once this really becomes part of our standard operating approach the productivity is going to be off the charts.

 

Sam Bhat:

Releasing these agents as part of our update this month and we'll be able to see the benefit of but this calendar year, not future.

 

Daniel Marino:

Well that is really exciting and I as I mentioned I mean eClinicalWorks has always been on the cutting edge of technology it's always been something that I've been extremely impressed with your organization and with your leaders so I wish you a lot of luck here. How's the conference going for you?

 

Sam Bhat:

The conference is going really great, and you're seeing a lot of momentum. And a lot of organizations looking for a change. Change not just for change just because they want to change but they want better efficiency and increase their productivity, cut down the physician burnout.

 

Daniel Marino:

And cutting edge technology. and that's what you guys have. Well thanks again Sam I really appreciate your time.

 

Sam Bhat:

Thank you, thank you.

 

Daniel Marino:

Interesting comments by Sam. Loves some of his thoughts on where artificial intelligence is going to go. And in particular some of the activities around the agent. Digital technology, Fred, was also a big focus of HIMSS and of course this was one of the four areas of pillars, if you will, that HIMSS was really focused on. Was there something related to digital technology that really caught your eye?

 

Fred Goldstein:

Yeah I think we're seeing this incredible growth in the potential. Now how much of it's actually being used in the market is less of this remote patient monitoring? And I think back to when I started my disease management care management company, you know typically someone see a doctor once twice maybe a Medicare person might seem 8 times a year and that's 1 little measuring point in this giant data set of what the individual's life is like. And by adding a care manager or somebody who called or talked to him you suddenly increased that data set. Now with remote patient monitoring we can really begin to understand the Natural History of disease of an individual's personalized condition and how it's impacting them. And I think remote patient monitoring has some incredible potential especially when linked up with AI because the data sets will be just gigantic.

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah I agree with you there was another vendor that I was had a chance to talk to and they were focused on remote patient monitoring and really using that to help create some efficiencies in transitions of care. Going from patients who were in the hospital upon the discharge and care in the home. And it was fascinating for the for me to see how they were integrating remote patient monitoring based on the individual disease condition so those that had say cardiovascular issues or even diabetes or what have you what have you. But the interesting thing about that was how it integrated all of the data into a prioritization of information that was able to give to the care managers. I thought that was really fascinating. That that could potentially be a real game changer as to how we manage care um post you know post discharge or really care in the home.

 

Fred Goldstein:

Yeah and it's as you mentioned that area of transition is a huge drop point where you see real issues show up because the transition doesn't go smoothly. So if you have a system that can be monitoring that and then say in effect, hey here's a here's a warning we've got this going on that we need to address now, that's going to be a huge improvement in outcomes cost etcetera.

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah and you know the part that I thought was interesting on this was it allows through this district advancement digital technology it allows us to get in front of some of these disease conditions, and to better understand some of these disease conditions. So you know another area that I found that was really interesting was how some of these technology vendors are helping to address issues of cancer and different cancers. So we can begin to not only use AI to identify diagnosis, but we're also then using digital technology to create more advanced therapies and working with the patients. I thought that was really fascinating. Was there anything out there that really caught your eye related to that?

 

Fred Goldstein:

I think the cancer area is really interesting obviously there have been incredible advancements with digital tech applied to image analysis. And when you can get down the pixel level you know you can really begin to understand what's going on. And identify things that may not show up to our normal eyes when we look at it. And so I think that that's going to be an area where we'll see some rapid integration of new technologies. Obviously the radiologists will still need to be involved, but it could take a huge workload off of those individuals so they can become more efficient as well.

 

Daniel Marino:

Well absolutely and you know it helps to as we're starting to think about the technology, I'm working through this with patients, not only is it going to help the cost but I could really see us thinking about having more personalized care and therapies that are really going to drive better outcomes for the patients. And frankly make the patients more comfortable as they're going through their treatments.

 

Fred Goldstein:

Yeah I think you ran on target with that. Whether it's the personalization of the messaging, because obviously I may react to some funny comment when I'm trying to lose weight and stand on the scale and it says what happened to you Fred? Where somebody else may need a different persona that's more gentle or something that helps them get motivated. So I think you can use it in that area obviously in the diagnosis area in looking at new treatment approaches developing. So there's incredible potential how and when we get there I think it's the big question. But we're beginning to see some progress.

 

Daniel Marino:

Absolutely, yeah I agree. So when I was talking to one of the vendors. I asked the question to him about you know how is this being received by physicians? And many of them, this one particular gentleman came back and said you know that's one of the biggest challenges because physicians have their approach and training page treating patients. They have their methodology that they incorporate into their care models. And to have them integrate that technology into the way that they practice is a bit of a is a bit of a challenge. It's almost relearning how to practice medicine. I thought that was really fascinating. Did that come across at all as you were starting to have your conversations as to the integration of that technology and the and the care plans?

 

Fred Goldstein:

Yeah I think there's definitely hesitancy and some of it is based upon reality. When we build these AI models and don't have a broad enough data set as we've seen in the past, we come up with issues where the model isn't correct. And so there needs to be the hesitancy there needs to be standard set, the physicians need to be comfortable with it, the patients need to be comfortable with it. and I think then including them as an augmented intelligence versus just artificial intelligence I think is going to be the key to solving that problem.

 

Daniel Marino:

So I had the opportunity to sit down with the gentleman Dr. Allen Young. He is a physician client executive with point B solutions. And I asked him just that. I asked him what that integration was going to be or how was going with physicians and how they were using that and incorporating it into their into their practice into the way that they deliver care. It was an interesting response. Let's listen to that for a few minutes.

 

Allen Young:

Yeah thanks for having me Dan and appreciate the time. One thing I've noticed is the growing trend and talk around AI agents. And the way agents are defined is that artificial intelligence powered workers that go and complete tasks on their own autonomously and then kind of bring the results or insights back. And what's exciting is to think about just the agents called the work they're doing but the oversight of agent representative or agent coordination. So you have multiple agents doing multiple things and then you have that step in between where someone will actually someone or AI will actually coordinate all of these different activities and hopefully bring the appropriate insights, recommendations, next steps, or even new content to clinicians right? As a physician it could be great if a number of agent I can go and go into a patient's record and come up with a number of different recommendations that kind of don't necessarily interrelate with each other but then have someone then oversee all of that and provide a meaningful recommendation or plan with context and also provide some of the shortcomings and things where they saw there wasn't enough information. Or areas where the clinician definitely needs to lean in more.

 

Daniel Marino:

Well and I think the agents, to your point, are definitely going to be that mechanism that's going to allows us to really not just operationalize but really realizing the benefits of AI pretty quick and pretty quick with patients now. Well thank you for your time I appreciate it, enjoy the rest of the conference.

 

Allen Young:

Thank you.

 

Daniel Marino:

Great response by Dr. Young, really appreciate that. Fred, this was a great conversation. I wanted to get your thoughts you've been going to HIMSS for a number of years. For many of our listeners who've not gone to HIMSS I'd highly recommend it, it's a it's a wonderful experience. As you reflect on this conference and past conferences, Fred, where do you feel like the greatest impact is for providers or for participants to either attend a conference like HIMSS or just participate in HIMSS?

 

Fred Goldsrtein:

Well I think HIMSS obviously is overwhelming and we talked about this before we recorded this show, and you had an incredible idea that I had never really thought about how physicians should approach this and you've been using it apparently for a couple years. So I'd love to hear that again.

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah so given the fact that you know there's 1000 plus vendors there 28,000 participants it's hard to navigate through the different vendor communities that are there. Oftentimes what we've done on behalf of clients, is if clients wanted to see something specific say they were looking at analytics or they were looking at you know specific types of technology. We would then reach out on behalf of the clients and pre schedule a lot of these meetings. It was a great way to have a very focused approach with the conferences. And we found that that was really a great way to approach it because it is quite large. And to your point it is a little overwhelming if you're just going to show up there on day one.

 

Fred Goldstein:

Absolutely it's you've gotta sort of quickly map out the booths which rows you wanna hit and then kind of that's what I did. I just worked from the low numbers to the high numbers said ohh that ones in this row I gotta go left, I gotta go right, and I had some really fascinating conversations. I got a chance to interview some folks so it was really a great conference overall

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah I agree I agree. Where do you think HIMSS is gonna go in the future?

 

Fred Goldstein:

Well it looks like they keep getting sort of more tech oriented. And you know as if and this worries me always the tech is the solution. Well tech is part of the solution. At the end of the day we still need people. People do respond better to people typically. So I think when it gets down to value-based care, as you focus on, that still gonna need a combination. And I don't know that we necessarily just solve it with tech. And sometimes I wonder if HIMSS goes a little bit too far in that direction.

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah I agree with you. You know I I've said a long time the technology is important but it really comes down to the people process and how you use that technology. I think that's really key. It will be interesting to see where things go they clearly make big impact in the whole technology world and certainly the integration with healthcare. Well Fred I wanna I wanna thank you for coming on. I love having a fellow podcast host and again another you know big shout out to your show Pop Health Week, it's a great program, I've listened to it many many times.

 

Fred Goldstein:

Well fantastic it's been my pleasure thanks for having me on.

 

Daniel Marino:

And to you our listeners I want to thank you for tuning in. Until our next insight I am Daniel Marino bringing you 30 minutes of value to your day.

In this special episode of Value-Based Care Insights, host Daniel Marino brings you exclusive interviews recorded live at HIMSS25, where healthcare innovation took center stage. The first interview features Stephen Overman, CEO & Founder of Standpoint Solutions, who shares their groundbreaking technology aimed at improving communication within perioperative services. Next, Dr. Alan Young, Client Executive at Point B Solutions, dives into the transformative role of artificial intelligence (AI) in patient care. The future of AI-driven healthcare is explored, including the rise of intelligent agents and their potential to influence clinical decision-making. Tune in for an insightful discussion on the future of healthcare, technology, and how innovation is reshaping patient care.

LISTEN TO THE EPISODE:

 

 

 

Dan Marino:

Welcome to Value-Based Care Insights, I'm your host Daniel Marino. In today's episode I'm going to spend some time reflecting on the hymns meeting that I went to a couple of weeks back. The theme of this last meeting was really I think twofold. One, talked a lot about digital health technology. But of course artificial intelligence was really a big theme. As part of my work there at HIMSS I had an opportunity to do 2 live interviews. I'm going to broadcast those for you today. The first interview was with Stephen overman. He's CEO and founder of standpoint solutions. Stephen has a really interesting software technology that overlays in perioperative services and really what it sells for is the communication gap that often exists as many providers start to come together to provide the surgery for patients. His technology is sort of like a social media application for perioperative services just a really a great solution. The second interview is with Dr. Alan Young. Dr. Young is client executive for point B solutions or technologies. He has a tremendous amount of experience in artificial intelligence and he and I just have a wonderful conversation where we talk about how artificial intelligence and the advancement of that is going to really change the way physicians are going to take care of patients. And in particular in that conversation he reflected on the use of agents and how agents are going to drive a lot of those outcomes. So why don't we dive into this and listen to Stephen Overman and Dr. Alan Young. Stephen welcome excited to talk with you today.

 

Stephen Overman:

Thank you Dan, it's very exciting to be here at a very large conference with you.

 

Dan Marino:

So I know Standpoint works with a lot of hospitals and focuses a lot on perioperative care, and in particular what I'm what I'm interested in is a lot of the work that you've done in supporting and improving perioperative services and in particular surgical services. And for any of our listeners out there surgical revenue from surgical services accounts for 65 to 70% of overall revenue, right? For a hospital and health system. So one of the areas that I know you're particularly interested in or your solution focuses on is a lot of the value-based outcomes associated with perioperative care. Can you speak to that a little bit?

 

Stephen Overman:

I sure can. It has a lot to do, first of all the term perioperative care was invented in 1966.

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah, most people don't even understand what that means

 

Stephen Overman:

They don't. All the teams that surround a patient as they go through a surgery and OR room as you can imagine it requires a lot of people a lot of teaming. And they are existing at different times of the day and different teams perpendicular type of surgery and so it's that teaming which excites us to focus our technologies on to improve the team, which creates a better patient experience a better clinical team and a better economic outcome.

 

Daniel Marino:

Well I think what a lot of people unless you're really involved in the OR or you know involved in surgical services you don't really understand the complexity of that. And two things that are particularly important aside from being able to generate the revenues that come from surgical services, it's efficiency and it's managing the cost of care. Right? And both of those are tied very closely. So if there are inefficiencies that occur that that occurs within the surgical setting it increases costs right? Yes clinical variation is one of those things that drives costs. How is your solution helped to identify maybe streamline clinical variation that occurs in sort of in the surgery room?

 

Stephen Overman:

That's a good question because the cost result a lot of times in a change of patient condition as they're in the pre the intro the surgery phase and then specifically in in the post-surgery, the PACU. This is where a lot of problems can arise in both clinically and cost sensitive. So most leaders of the perioperative care episode typically the surgeon and more importantly the anesthesiologist today and some of the nurses, they need clinical and cost feedback right now to the condition of the patient compared to a community of patients of the past. So they can make a comparison of what's driving towards a target that's looking more negative such as length of stay or possibly returning to the hospital in 28 days. Or the cost factor so they can adjust the care pathway adjust the orders toward the patient.

 

Daniel Marino:

Well and I'll tell you so efficiency in the OR is very important right? So how we manage surgical block time, how we manage flip rooms making sure we start and stop on time. But understanding that variation and the efficiency around it to your point is so key. There's so many components that are as a result of inefficiencies that occur in the OR. One in particular is readmission rates you know as you mentioned the length of stay and when you think about it from a value-based care standpoint hospitals are held responsible right? and if patients aren't if you don't understand that post operative rehab service correctly if you don't manage it correctly and you have the right transitions of care what ends up happening is a patient show up in the emergency room and then they're readmitted.

 

Stephen Overman:

Exactly you're starting all over again

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about one of the areas in your solution the communication, right? It's complicated from that standpoint because you've got the surgeon you've got the anesthesiologists you may have the OR nursing you know leader and the OR nurses. How does your solution help to streamline improve communication?

 

Stephen Overman:

Well it comes back to that teaming concept. They are a team and we provide them with a interface both mobile and desktop that allows them to interface around that patient. Patients always at the center of the care for that episode. But it looks very much like a social network.

 

Daniel Marino:

Yes.

 

Stephen Overman:

Because it's been found to be we're all used to social networks. It's a great way to formally and informally communicate to share data share thoughts share more importantly feedback a nurse give feedback to a physician that comes out of the PACU. So we chose a very simple very uncomplex social network interface for our platform we call ethos. Which is a a perioperative risk stratification and performance platform. It very easy to use it's centered and secure around the patient, but more importantly 1/3 component or major feature of our of our platform is to measure the teaming effectivity.

 

Daniel Marino:

Ohh wow so you're actually measuring how well the different groups are performing in the teams?

 

Stephen Overman:

Exactly. It comes back out of that social Network World again.

 

Daniel Marino:

Ohh my gosh see that's unusual because I'll tell you a lot of people talk about communication to talk about establishing the team but it's very difficult to be able to measure that. I would think that the contributing challenges in terms of the lack of communication, you probably know the statistics off the top of your head, I would think it would be quite great. So I was working with one organization and what we determined was they didn't not have a very strong pre surgical evaluation structure. So in this scenario patients were evaluated by the primary care physician before they went into surgery. There was also some evaluation that was done by the surgeon of course. But what we found was that that information actually never got into the anesthesiologist. It didn't get shared. And when we were starting to really look at what some of the challenges were and the byproduct of that was they had a large cancellation rate. So when we were looking at the kind of the root cause of those cancellation, which what we found was there were instances with the patient some conditions with the patients that were never communicated to the anesthesiologist. And not only was it disruptive to the scheduling of the surgical schedule but it was extremely disruptive patient right? I mean if you're getting yourself prompted for surgery and then all of a sudden it's cancelled you know that's the last thing you want to experience. So how is your system then connecting those dots? How do you inform particularly the anesthesiologists, who in many organizations you know they're sort of that champion of the surgery activities.

 

Stephen Overman:

Yeah we believe they're one of the leaders. We go back to our first feature in ethos and we calculate that risk stratification.

 

Daniel Marino:

So are you risk scoring patients to a certain extent?

 

Stephen Overman:

We're not scoring we're actually running some very accurate machine learning that gives you what factors clinically and cost and experience related such as the patient or the clinical team that is driving a particular targeted outcome. For instance a total hip replacement length of stay, probability returning the hospital in 30 sixty 90 days, and team effectivity. Those are kinds of risk stratification analysis that we allow the leaders, such surgeon or anesthesiologist, to simply click a button around that patient and have that very accurate incredible deep information. We call it clinical insight. But they also are exposed to cost so they can make cost decisions through that council care pathway. 77% of physicians prefer to see cost data when they see predicted clinical data so they can make a better decision through that flow.

 

Daniel Marino:

And that is so important. A lot of organizations as they're shifting into value-based care are looking at these episode based models right? And they're pricing out these models and they're assuming a level of risk for a lot of these procedures that are occurring. So I would think just having this cost information and just being able to share this information with the with the surgeons with the anesthesiologists to create that awareness.

 

Stephen Overman:

Doctors do want to see it, they are just not given exposure to it.

 

Daniel Marino:

Yeah absolutely. How have you seen organizations take that improved communication, that data, how have they built it into maybe some of their process improvements? Has it been more of a governance issue? Have there been process improvement initiatives? What have you seen?

 

Stephen Overman:

Well, care pathway an episode of care for a patient goes into order sets into the EHR system EMR system. They see inefficiencies with respect to the choices of cost care products that they can better maintain if they're if they're given that kind of relevant data. They can understand if a team is being better communicated too there's less questions. And so you're saving a lot of time of going off channel to texting emails in notes whatever it might be to communicate with each other. And not everybody's on the same time scale and that's where mistakes start happening. So when a in a single social network like environment that's highly secure, they can see all of that data and simply yeah give comment right to how to better optimize the care pathway. Which typically saves costs saves time.

 

Daniel Marino:

Well I'll tell you there's here at HIMSS there's a lot of technology and a lot of folks are focusing on providing information at the point of care and so forth. I think what excites me about what you're describing because it's really it's moving towards proactive care right? You're giving information to the surgical team that's allowing them to be proactive to anticipate some challenge and to communicate about it. And I think when you when you focus when hospitals and health systems focus on moving towards value based care those elements are critically important.

 

Stephen Overman:

Yes it's that's one of the reasons why we've chosen an ROI based revenue model for when we license our application and hospital.

 

Daniel Marino:

So even your financial model is value-based?

 

Stephen Overman:

Yes, if we're doing good, you’re doing good. If we are adding features you find a value because we're learning from our clients. You get that.

 

Daniel Marino:

Well they're aligning incentives right?

 

Stephen Overman:
Exactly.

 

Daniel Marino:

Well Stephen this has been fantastic I really appreciate you joining me. And for anybody that's interested in finding out a little bit more around standpoint please visit https://www.standpointdsoftware.com. If folks are interested in getting a hold of you, can you share your information?

 

Stephen Overman:

I sure can. On our website there is a 1-800 number and this actually gets directed to me and I will be happy to explain and even show you an explainer video and point you to a link that you can watch and see a video of what our application platform does.

 

Daniel Marino:

Wow that's fantastic well I would assume that there's a lot of hospital and health executives out there that would be very interested in your program. You know there's not a great communication tool there's not a great system that really provides a lot of support for perioperative services. Well Stephen I want to thank you for joining me today this has been fantastic I wish you a lot of success that standpoint and please enjoy the rest of the conference.

 

Stephen Overman:

I will thank you so much Dan it's been a pleasure.

 

Daniel Marino:

Welcome back to our live recording of HIMSS25 in Las Vegas, NV. I am your host Daniel Marino, on Value-Based Care Insights. My next guest is Dr Alan Young. Dr. Young is a client solution executive for Point B Solutions. Dr. Young thanks for joining me today.

 

Alan Young:

No problem Daniel, thanks for having me.

 

Daniel Marino:

So I know, Dr. Young, you know one of the areas that you're really focused on is digital health technology. And here at the conference there's been so much information sharing around artificial intelligence. What I find interesting is how digital technology and artificial intelligence will start to come together. And in particular how we're going to start to see that impact for patients. Now I know we're still early in our in our sort of journey into artificial intelligence, well what are you seeing now as some of the biggest impacts that the collaboration of digital technology and artificial intelligence what do you see that having on patients?

 

Alan Young:

Yeah great question. I think since the advent of the electronic health record we've been faced with this challenge of having too much data that keeps growing exponentially every day. Patient data, clinical data, research data, and I see digital health solutions artificial intelligence as potentially closing the gap between what we need at the bedside what patients need at their homes and what we want behavior change and modification to take place in order to kind of achieve better outcomes.

 

Daniel Marino:

Do you think, just kind of building on that for a second, do you think that layering on artificial intelligence is going to help to better organize the data so providers have sort of a stronger picture or a clear direction on the care that's going to be provided to patients?

 

Alan Young:

Yeah I don't want to think about layering it on. I think it needs to be appropriately implemented in the right situation in the right contacts with the right stakeholders involved.

 

Daniel Marino:

We really have to move towards more proactive care as we start to anticipate what's occurring with patients maybe on their different risk conditions and so forth. How do you see AI being able to support that?

 

Alan Young:

I think as clinicians we always wanted to do what's best for our patient and we hope that with patients there'll be two things that happen. They come in to see a doctor and the optimal condition that they had, and that's usually not the case, and when they leave they actually follow our instructions. Or know what to do. And I think that's doesn't happen very often right? So I think artificial intelligence especially some of the applications we have through machine learning and generative AI can now help us to be proactive to look at patient data and the vast sources and multiple sources that we have in order to give a clinician or the healthcare team some insight into what this patient needs as they arrive for their visit or start a telemedicine consultation or even get on the phone. That gives us insights that previously physician would have to go into a record and read on their own they just don't have the time. They have so many administrative and clinical and other possibilities but we need to do that we need to take advantage of the power within the data.

 

Daniel Marino:

Well and I think to be able to aggregate all those data sources I see that as a huge value of artificial intelligence. I mean if you think about it you've got the clinical data you may have some financial data you have the social determinant data and a lot of people would argue and I would be one of these that the social determinant aspect of that that a person is involved in does really influence their clinical outcomes right? Their care or and even their conditions. So as we start to think about that and we pull that together I think that's really where the driver comes in. Is there some immediate solutions that you think may help? For instance remote patient monitoring and how we're interacting with patients taking all those things into consideration or maybe it's just the telehealth visit.

 

Alan Young:

Yeah I think there's one exciting advancement I've seen recently is really focused in the area of patient engagement and education, using digital health driven by AI. So if you think about remote patient monitoring you have you're getting data about a patient they know what their blood pressure is they know what their cholesterol is they know what their you know diabetes continuous glucose monitoring readings are, but they don't know how to react to it in real time.

 

Daniel Marino:

And they really don't truly understand it. So they're saying these are as indicators but I don't understand what it really means.

 

Alan Young:

We have a kind of asset that you can deploy that will be there as a companion and help guide them. And I've seen one company called acolyte health they use digital avatars of celebrities or athletes that then accompany the patient home and help walk them through their care journey. This is what you need to do, this is how you should, this is why it's important to do you're screening, why you should eat exercise and change your diet. It helps empower them to think about who else is motivating them. And so taking that ability to create a digital persona using data that we have and then relying on the patients RPM data or their EHR data to then drive the right messaging through that educational tool, hopefully we'll improve better patient compliance adherence to physician recommendations and even knowing what to do when something is not going well.

 

Daniel Marino:

Right, I mean what you're describing to me just sounds so powerful. When you're when you think about artificial intelligence and you think about then digital health technology we're moving very fast right? What do you see as some of our biggest challenges?

 

Alan Young:

I think the movement and the interest and also the investments focus attention paid on artificial intelligence has caused a lot of organizations to adopt point solutions or boltons to existing systems or even you know legacy IT solutions because they don't they don't know how to use it and there's a demand on them to get it in. One example would be Ambien AI and there's plenty of those vendors around.

 

Daniel Marino:

Yes, a lot of vendors around.

 

Alan Young:

A lot of thought has to go into are you picking the right vendor, does integrate into your system? And so that has been a big challenge to think about what's going to happen down the road when you IT organization looks at their number of solutions or applications sees hundreds of AI tools. So I think where the opportunity is, and I had the chance to meet a few companies during HIMSS, was really to be a platform based company and an AI first company. And build everything from the ground up and then go to market with those solutions. And one of them was focused predominantly on value-based care which I found to be really refreshing, given the timing of our conversation. So much of the platform that's using all the AI tools and capabilities to enforce all of the value-based care activities such as scheduling and you know gap closure analysis and patient engagement.

 

Daniel Marino:

Really you integrate that into whatever that end game would be whether it's going to be for service or value-based care I think would be key. Do you feel that given the speed and and the pace that we're moving at, do you feel that many CIO's of hospitals health systems should they put together a strategy plan as to how we need to integrate this technology? How we need to integrate our data into some type of an artificial intelligence road map if you will?

 

Alan Young:

Right. I think you hit on a very sensitive point because this we're in a decade now halfway through we're in 2025 years of unprecedented change in healthcare and a lot of unknowns and new entrance of technology and processes. And I think there needs to be a thoughtful perspective to say hey my organization is going through this change. I should rely or reach out to someone that has experience doing this or can bring a different perspective. And I think that's the biggest thing. I don't think there's any experts out there that can say ohh you know we've survived the AI boom and we know what to do. No one knows we want to be thought partners to help CIO, CTO, chief medical officers think through do they need a new strategy? What is their data approach to data? Are they investing all into value-based care? Are they moving into a more home based hospital at home model?

 

Daniel Marino:

Well if anything just to share the insights right? And to understand what's occurring and you know to your point earlier and I love that. If you can learn from other people's successes and learn from the challenges that people had wrapped it into your strategy, I mean that makes all the sense in the world. I've said time and time again and we practice this a lot of in the work that we do form follows function you have to understand where you're going. One other item I want to talk a little bit about are some of the real opportunities that are out there, but then some of the challenges around these standalone applications. You know as we look around HIMSS here and we see all of the vendors there's a lot of folks who are building these standalone applications, which may not necessarily integrate with EHR's is that a problem is that a challenge? Or do we feel like that's going to fix itself?

 

Alan Young:

I think the biggest challenge here is that yes there's a myriad of new technology and a large number of entrants into the solution space. For multiple reasons. A) Healthcare is a big industry. It generates 20 plus percent of this country's GDP and it's very personal. B) I think the technology has advanced so quickly and has the cost has dropped dramatically that new companies can be spun up quickly.

 

Daniel Marino:

Ohh and there's private equity dollars that are being funneled right?

 

Alan Young:

And you don't need a team of 10 to 20 engineers overseas anymore. You can spin it up with the Gen. AI applications and you have one or two people manage shop that took months to build it can be done in weeks or days. So that's created a large number of entrances. And then you have the resistance of the industry professionals and I think I recall my experience trying to convince doctors that the HER was going to be the next greatest thing ever, and we see how that went. And the same thing is happening now doctors are not as forthright with admitting they're going to accept and adopt technology that they don't understand or they don't not have sufficient training or education on. No one can tell me they understand all the coding languages the data science, very few of my friends and mentors were physicians can do that but the majority aren't. They're busy seeing patients they go home to their families they just want to do the day-to-day work.

 

Daniel Marino:

Well and I think the underlying message there is there's exciting opportunities as we see these new applications emerge these new organizations emerge but there's also a lot of challenges. So a couple of things for any of our listeners that are out there who are interested in learning a little bit more your organization or maybe about you or just some thoughts that are coming down the pike regarding artificial intelligence, can you share some of your information maybe you know how they can get a hold of you?

 

Alan Young:

Yeah, I work for point B our website is pointb.com. I think the biggest thing that you know take away for the audience is we really thrive building an ecosystem of partners and collaborators. I think talking to physicians executives technology companies from the big ones to the small ones to the middle market ones we can't do it alone. We're not going to be able to solve all these problems and challenges we need partners that understand the tech in a deep you know very focused way. But then we also need people that are more broad based and thinking holistically about the long term impact of accessing care and population health.

 

Daniel Marino:

Well and the fact that you know you've started to kind of build this capability and this knowledge base is as we talked about absolutely invaluable. I think as we as we move forward. Well Dr. Young this has been fantastic conversation. I really appreciate it and I know this isn't going to be the last time we talked about artificial intelligence and digital health technology. I fully expect a lot of movement happening very quick in terms of the integration with AI and digital technology so thank you for spending some time today.

 

Alan Young:

Thank you Daniel.

 

Daniel Marino:

And enjoy the rest of the conference. And to our listeners I'm Daniel Marino I want to thank you for tuning into this episode of Value-Based Care Insights live at HIMSS25 in Las Vegas. And until our next insight I'm bringing you 30 minutes of value to your day. Thanks, and take care.